The Study of Revelation

[Keraz]

I summarize Revelation with: Look out! It’s all going to happen and we should be aware and prepared for it. Be not in the dark as Paul says in 1 Thess 5:3-4
Actually the first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11. As we see from the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then. The Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3
The proof that we ARE in the end times, is all the time periods as given in the Bible up to the conquest of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and from then until today: adds up to 5989 years, +/- 1 or 2 years.

People can argue against the truth of mankind being given 6000 years to rule themselves and then Jesus will rule for 1000 years, however; this decreed time can be plainly discerned from the Bible. The Creation as per Genesis 1, models this period.
The fact is that there were exactly 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus, so it is logical to assume there will be 2000 years of this Christian era to complete, which will finally demonstrate our inability to self rule. The reign of Jesus for the final 1000 years will demonstrate that His rule of benevolent dictatorship is the best form of Government.

 

[Keraz]

Now someone may suggest that this does not refer to natural Israel, but to spiritual Israel, but a thorough examination of the context will show that the time in which this covenant is to be establish is in the next age not now during the Gospel age, and certainly not with the Church.

I will take issue with this.
The New Covenant is made with every born again Christian. Ethnic Israel, namely the Jewish people rejected Jesus, so He has rejected them. Matthew 21:43.
It is we Christians who bear the proper fruit, Galatians 5:22, the Jewish State of Israel comprises of about half atheists, the rest Judaism, which is a religion of tradition, far removed from what God requires of us. Jesus said they were of the synagogue of Satan.
Thinking that ethnicity has any value with God, is a contradiction of NT teachings. Ephesians 1:11-18 plainly refutes it.
Also there is the truth that we Christians are the children of Abraham by our faith in God. Galatians 3:26-29

So you are in serious error, Harvest1874, with your promotion of natural Israel being redeemed and the exclusive recipients of the New Covenant. There is only one people of God; His faithful believers. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11

 

[Harvest 1874]

I will take issue with this.
The New Covenant is made with every born again Christian. Ethnic Israel, namely the Jewish people rejected Jesus, so He has rejected them. Matthew 21:43.
It is we Christians who bear the proper fruit, Galatians 5:22, the Jewish State of Israel comprises of about half atheists, the rest Judaism, which is a religion of tradition, far removed from what God requires of us. Jesus said they were of the synagogue of Satan.
Thinking that ethnicity has any value with God, is a contradiction of NT teachings. Ephesians 1:11-18 plainly refutes it.
Also there is the truth that we Christians are the children of Abraham by our faith in God. Galatians 3:26-29

So you are in serious error, Harvest1874, with your promotion of natural Israel being redeemed and the exclusive recipients of the New Covenant. There is only one people of God; His faithful believers. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11

I would suggest you read our blog post entitled the Mediator and the New Covenant, for a proper understanding on this matter you will see that if you believe you are under the New Covenant then you can't be in the Church for it is the Church who is to mediate the New Covenant with Israel and through Israel to the rest of the world.

 

[Keraz]

I would suggest you read our blog post entitled the Mediator and the New Covenant, for a proper understanding on this matter you will see that if you believe you are under the New Covenant then you can't be in the Church for it is the Church who is to mediate the New Covenant with Israel and through Israel to the rest of the world.

So; answer this: Who is Israel?
Are they just the citizens of the State of Israel, plus Jews still in diaspora?
Are they the ten lost tribes of Israel, still scattered among the nations?
Or are they what the name 'Israel' means; Overcomers for God, His faithful born again people from every race, nation and language?

Also, please define the Church.

 

[Harvest 1874]

So; answer this: Who is Israel?

There are two Israel’s if you will that which is according to the flesh and that which is according to the spirit, natural Israel and spiritual Israel.

Are they just the citizens of the State of Israel, plus Jews still in diaspora?

The only natural Israelite's recognized by God as children of Abraham are those who still hold to the faith of Abraham and trust in the divine promises, this whether they reside in Israel or not.

It is important to note, that the promises made to these faithful Jews, thus designated “the children of Abraham”, are all EARTHLY promises, earthly blessings, NOT HEAVENLY promises, for no spiritual reward was ever offered to Abraham, nor to any of his seed according to the flesh.

Are they the ten lost tribes of Israel, still scattered among the nations?

No, the belief that the Anglo-Saxons, the peoples of Europe and United States, are the descendants of the ten tribes of Israel which separated from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, after the death of Solomon is false.

The fact that the ten tribes strayed away from the two is NOT to their credit, but otherwise. It is evidence that they were disposed to reject God's promises; it is a sign of infidelity, of unbelief; for they well knew that God had predicted that the Lawgiver, the Savior, the Deliverer, the King, in whom and by whom the promises were to be fulfilled, was to come out of Judah. The tribe of Benjamin was the only tribe, therefore, aside from Judah, which, at the time of the revolt, manifested faith in God's promises. But at the time of the return from the Babylonian captivity, though those who showed their continued faith in God and his promises, by returning to the land of Canaan, were mostly of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, yet not all who came back were of these two tribes alone. Among them were some from the other various tribes, who loved the Lord and sought him with repentance, still, relying upon his promises. However, the vast majority of the ten tribes, as well as of the two tribes, did not avail themselves of the opportunity to return to the land of promise, preferring Babylon and other lands, many among them having fallen into idolatry and having lost their respect for God's promises.

We must remember that only a few of those who returned to their land under the lead of Ezra and none of those who returned under Nehemiah were of those who had been taken captive, the vast majority having died years before in Babylon. These were their children, in whose hearts the faith of their fathers still burned, who still hoped for the blessings and honors promised to Abraham's seed. Thus the returning little band of less than fifty thousand were all the Israelite's then remaining, of all the tribes, who by the act of returning to the land of promise showed that they still held to the faith of Abraham. It was to the descendants of these fittest ones, sifted out of all the tribes of Israel-- though principally of the two tribes, and all called Jews, after the royal and predominating tribe--that our Lord presented himself and the Kingdom at the first advent, as representing the holy nation, Israel entire.

Or are they what the name 'Israel' means; Overcomers for God, His faithful born again people from every race, nation and language?

The word “Israel” has a variety of meanings; it can refer to a group of individuals, to spiritual Israel (nominal or true), to fleshly Israel (nominal or true), to the nation, or to Jacob himself. Hence “Israel” is like the word “sheep” in that both terms can be singular or plural depending on context.

“Israel” means “prince of God”; this title of honor was given to Jacob because he contended (struggled) for the blessing (Gen. 32:28). Similarly God will reward the faithful Christian in the next life for trying (struggling) to do His will and fighting the good fight of faith in the present life. Thus another one of its various meanings is “soldier of God”.

However the most important meaning is the “People of God”, which applies not only to his faithful spirit begotten children now, but likewise to his faithful natural children in the age to come, both natural Israel and the rest of mankind as they come in under the terms of the New Covenant arrangement becoming themselves “Israelite's indeed” the people of God. "For he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter…" (Rom. 2:29)

"For thy pleasure (because thou art love) they (all) are and were created." (Rev. 4:11) Man's true peace can be found only in harmony with his Creator.

The special distinction made between spiritual Israel, as the "people of God" and natural Israel, as the “people of God” is all the more made apparent in Gal 6:15, 16.

“For in Christ Jesus neither (being of the) circumcision (a Jew) nor uncircumcision (a Gentile) avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.”

The real Israel of God is spiritual Israel. As it is written, "They are not all Israel (the real Israel) which are of Israel (of the natural seed)." Rom. 9:6

It is entirely appropriate that Bible student emphasize this particular use of the word "Israel." When God accepts our consecration, we become new creatures and are accepted as his sons. We become part of the "Israel of God" even though we may not necessarily be natural descendants of Jacob.

Christ is the glory of the Church, the true Israel of God (Rom. 11:7); and he will be the glory of fleshly, or natural, Israel when their eyes are eventually opened and they are received by him under the New Covenant.

I will address your last question in my next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Also, please define the Church.

The Church, the body of Christ includes all who are fully consecrated to the Lord, those who have entered into covenant arrangement with the Father.

This covenant is NOT the New Covenant as many erroneously believe, but rather the Abrahamic Covenant, likewise referred to as the Sarah Covenant (Gal 4:22-31), the Grace Covenant (Rom 6:14), and the Covenant of Sacrifice (Psa 50:5), this last being specifically the one referred to.

The vast majority of believers have not taken the step of a full consecration to the Lord nor have they entered into this covenant with the Father this because they are unawares of its requirement, that it is prerequisite to becoming joined to the body of Christ; this fault lies primarily upon the heads of the blind guides of Christendom (Luke 11:52), but likewise upon the believer himself as most make very little to no effort at all to investigate for themselves to see just what the true requirements for membership in the body of Christ are.

Most are of the opinion that a mere confession of faith is all that is necessary. The very fact that we are admonished by the Lord to first “count the cost” before entering in upon the narrow way which leads to sacrifice should suffice to say that this is not so, that there are indeed further requirements above and beyond simply making a profession of faith. Again and again, would-be followers are cautioned to consider carefully the requirements of discipleship before undertaking its obligations.

There is a distinction between a mere believer and Christian, all who profess faith in Christ, are believers, but not all believers are Christians. To become a true Christian, a disciple of Christ requires much more than a simply a profession of faith it requires that one be willing to take up their cross daily and follow in the Masters foot-steps. The first of these steps which he took was to fully consecrate himself to the Father (to the doing of His will), and to enter into a covenant with the LORD, a “covenant by sacrifice”, which not only included the daily sacrifices necessary to the fulfillment of this covenant, but likewise that of his being found faithful unto death (Rev 2:10), something which most believers fail to rightly understand as a requirement of every faithful disciple of Christ, evident by their erroneous beliefs in the Rapture of the Church in which they hope to escape this particular requirement.

 

[Keraz]

Thank you very much, Harvest for your excellent replies.

Christ is the glory of the Church, the true Israel of God (Rom. 11:7); and he will be the glory of fleshly, or natural, Israel when their eyes are eventually opened and they are received by him under the New Covenant.

One point I differ with you is where you say that ethnic Israel, by whom; I assume you mean the Jewish people, the State of Israel and the many Jews still in Diaspora, will be redeemed and they will get the New Covenant.
This idea conflicts with the many prophesies that tell us about the virtual demise of Judah, in the OT and Paul makes it clear in Romans 9:27 that only a remnant will survive.
It will be the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal; the Great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath that will wipe out the population of the entire Middle East region and only a few Messianic Jews will survive in bunkers. Isaiah 29:4, + 20 other prophesies saying how the Lord will smash those people. Jeremiah 19:11, Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5

Jeremiah 50:4-5 In those days, Judah and Israel shall come together and go in tears to Zion.....
That they haven't rejoined as yet, is proved by Ezekiel 37, where the Promised blessings remain unfulfilled.

I am pleased to see you reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory. This false teaching has fooled millions, to their ultimate shame.

The real Israel of God is spiritual Israel. As it is written, "They are not all Israel (the real Israel) which are of Israel (of the natural seed)." Rom. 9:6

This is the real truth. Ethnicity, race, nationality, skin color, etc have nothing to do with a true Israelite of God. They are everyone who is a born again, faithful Christian who keeps the Commandments and bears the fruit of the Spirit.

But God does have a secret, He knows who and where the House of Israel is now. Amos 9:9
It was THEM whom Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 He did not fail in that mission, as the Apostles went out to the Gentiles as they called them, because they did know where Israel was. James 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1, Acts 26:7
The result is the Western Christian nations. The People who do bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

I agree that the full implications of the New Covenant have yet to be fulfilled. They will be when all the Christians who stood firm in their faith during the Lord's Day of wrath, the great world changer soon to happen, gather into all of the holy Land. In the new nation of Beulah. As Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, and Romans 9:24-26 tell us.

 

[ScottA]

The only natural Israelite's recognized by God as children of Abraham are those who still hold to the faith of Abraham and trust in the divine promises, this whether they reside in Israel or not.

It is important to note, that the promises made to these faithful Jews, thus designated “the children of Abraham”, are all EARTHLY promises, earthly blessings, NOT HEAVENLY promises, for no spiritual reward was ever offered to Abraham, nor to any of his seed according to the flesh.

This (your comment above) is a great misunderstanding by many.

Paul does not define the two as you have, but rather as those of the linage of the first Adam, and those of the Last Adam. The one being flesh, and the other being of Christ, a life-giving spirit. He also defines them as "the dead in Christ", and "the living in Chirst", as all flesh dies, but those born of the spirit of God never die. Jesus defines each as two different folds. Thus, the house of Israel for which Christ first came (the sons of the first Adam) died in their sins and are in Him as "the dead", but gain salvation in His promise of sacrifice as their Messiah...which is indeed a spiritual promise. "The living" in Christ then, are those born [again] of the spirit of God, which was not given to the house of Israel, but to the gentiles. In this way, just as Jesus proclaimed, "the first are the last, and the last first."

This is the reconciliation of every word of God.

 

[Keraz]

This (your comment above) is a great misunderstanding by many.

Paul does not define the two as you have, but rather as those of the linage of the first Adam, and those of the Last Adam. The one being flesh, and the other being of Christ, a life-giving spirit. He also defines them as "the dead in Christ", and "the living in Chirst", as all flesh dies, but those born of the spirit of God never die. Jesus defines each as two different folds. Thus, the house of Israel for which Christ first came (the sons of the first Adam) died in their sins and are in Him as "the dead", but gain salvation in His promise of sacrifice as their Messiah...which is indeed a spiritual promise. "The living" in Christ then, are those born [again] of the spirit of God, which was not given to the house of Israel, but to the gentiles. In this way, just as Jesus proclaimed, "the first are the last, and the last first."

This is the reconciliation of every word of God.

Yes ScottA, there are two peoples on earth: Those who believe in God and those who reject Him.
Those of the first Adam who sinned and those who follow the second Adam, namely Jesus.

People who are at present of the first Adam, have their chance now to accept Jesus, soon it will be too late.
But the idea of a people; of the Jewish people having any kind of inside track to Salvation because of their claimed identity, is quite wrong and unbiblical. They rejected Jesus and He rejected them. Matthew 21:43 Only .05% of the Jews are Messianic, the rest as Paul and many prophesies tell us will be destroyed. Romans 9:27, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18

 

[Enoch111]

Only .05% of the Jews are Messianic, the rest as Paul and many prophesies tell us will be destroyed.

You are forgetting Romans 11, which goes into effect after the Second Coming of Christ (when He comes to Jerusalem/Zion/Sion).

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[mjrhealth]

But the idea of a people; of the Jewish people having any kind of inside track to Salvation because of their claimed identity, is quite wrong and unbiblical.

God made a promise to Israel, and God does not break His promises no matter what the learned might think. As for studying, I have a friend whom the Lord has being teaching Genesis for over 30 years. still only somewhere around chapter 3, and men think they can figure it out themselves how proud and arrogant we are.

 

[Keraz]

God made a promise to Israel, and God does not break His promises no matter what the learned might think. As for studying, I have a friend whom the Lord has being teaching Genesis for over 30 years. still only somewhere around chapter 3, and men think they can figure it out themselves how proud and arrogant we are.

Well then, we need to know who the people who call themselves Jews actually are. Jesus said they were of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9
Historical facts prove that very few, if any, are actual descendants of Judah.
God will keep His promises; to the people who are the children of Abraham by faith. Galatians 3:26-29 could not be clearer. Romans 9:6 puts the cap on it!

As for 'figuring out the prophesies', I do not claim to know it all, but Daniel 12:10 does say that in the last days, some will understand God's plans for His people.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well then, we need to know who the people who call themselves Jews actually are. Jesus said they were of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9
Historical facts prove that very few, if any, are actual descendants of Judah.
God will keep His promises; to the people who are the children of Abraham by faith. Galatians 3:26-29 could not be clearer. Romans 9:6 puts the cap on it!

As for 'figuring out the prophesies', I do not claim to know it all, but Daniel 12:10 does say that in the last days, some will understand God's plans for His people.

There are 12 tribes to Israel, there are only 2 that make up the Jews, Judah and Benjamin I believe the rest are still scattered, they will return as God promised, He keeps His word, ...

 

[Keraz]

There are 12 tribes to Israel, there are only 2 that make up the Jews, Judah and Benjamin I believe the rest are still scattered, they will return as God promised, He keeps His word, ...

Remember, it was ancient Israel who broke the Covenant with God and Judah lost the Kingdom when they Killed Jesus. Matthew 21:43
However, you are right in that Israel remains scattered among the nations. It is them who have, mainly become Christians. Jesus' Mission didn't fail. Matthew 15:24
You contradict Matthew 8:11-12 when you insist the Promises of God are exclusively for the Jews.

 

[mjrhealth]

Remember, it was ancient Israel who broke the Covenant with God and Judah lost the Kingdom when they Killed Jesus. Matthew 21:43
However, you are right in that Israel remains scattered among the nations. It is them who have, mainly become Christians. Jesus' Mission didn't fail. Matthew 15:24
You contradict Matthew 8:11-12 when you insist the Promises of God are exclusively for the Jews.

what has that to do with us ???

And you will find if you bother to look that those nations scattered still hold onto the Jewish traditions and will do, until the veil is removed. What I dont understand is why is it that christians have such a hatred for the Jews, Hebrews, Israelitse, God will restore Israel, and He could care less what you or others think, and the re will be two flocks and one fold.

 

[Keraz]

what has that to do with us ???

We Christians ARE the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
Being in Christ, means we are the inheritors of the Promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11-14

And you will find if you bother to look that those nations scattered still hold onto the Jewish traditions and will do, until the veil is removed. What I dont understand is why is it that christians have such a hatred for the Jews, Hebrews, Israelitse, God will restore Israel, and He could care less what you or others think, and the re will be two flocks and one fold.

If you believe that those who call themselves Jews are true Jews, then you contradict scripture. Romans 2:29, Romans 9:6-8

And do not accuse those who believe as I do; of hatred of anyone. To even use that word is an indictment against you. You make that accusation because we who refute the unbiblical 'rapture to heaven' theory.
It is you that has failed to read and understand what God plans for His faithful people.

Yes; mjrhealth; there are 2 flocks. Read about them in Matthew 25:31-46

 

[rockytopva]

I summarize Revelation with: Look out! It’s all going to happen and we should be aware and prepared for it. Be not in the dark as Paul says in 1 Thess 5:3-4
Actually the first Five Seals were opened at Christ’s Ascension, as per Revelation 5 and 6:1-11. As we see from the terrible wars, famines and plagues we have experienced since then. The Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's wrath, is the next prophesied event we can expect, with its dramatic cosmic and world shaking things prophesied, triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

This worldwide disaster will cause the nations to combine in a One World Government, but we Christians will be motivated to go to and settle in all of the holy Land. We are seen there by John in Revelation 7:9-14 and when the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls starts: in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and in Revelation 12:14-17. We see how some Christians are taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days, but the rest must remain in the holy Land while under the control of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-7. Daniel 11:32-35 tells how the Lord’s people are divided at this time. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes this conquest.

All this information is given to us before it happens so we are without excuse if we fail to take note of and understand God's Plans for the end times. Amos 3:7, Revelation 1:1-3
The proof that we ARE in the end times, is all the time periods as given in the Bible up to the conquest of Judah by Babylon in 586 BC and from then until today: adds up to 5989 years, +/- 1 or 2 years.

People can argue against the truth of mankind being given 6000 years to rule themselves and then Jesus will rule for 1000 years, however; this decreed time can be plainly discerned from the Bible. The Creation as per Genesis 1, models this period.
The fact is that there were exactly 2000 years from Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus, so it is logical to assume there will be 2000 years of this Christian era to complete, which will finally demonstrate our inability to self rule. The reign of Jesus for the final 1000 years will demonstrate that His rule of benevolent dictatorship is the best form of Government.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. - 1 Thessalonians 5:4

That scripture does not indicate they are in the dark as intellectually knowing the day. For it says ...

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.- 1 Thessalonians 5:2

So the darkness pertains to the fact that they are living in the Christian light.

 

[mjrhealth]

We Christians ARE the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
Being in Christ, means we are the inheritors of the Promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11-14

If you believe that those who call themselves Jews are true Jews, then you contradict scripture. Romans 2:29, Romans 9:6-8

And do not accuse those who believe as I do; of hatred of anyone. To even use that word is an indictment against you. You make that accusation because we who refute the unbiblical 'rapture to heaven' theory.
It is you that has failed to read and understand what God plans for His faithful people.

Yes; mjrhealth; there are 2 flocks. Read about them in Matthew 25:31-46

I can only guess that you are a Theologian and study to much ,never said the at all Jews are true Jews, it is you who raised that, just like not all who call themselves "christian:" are..

2Ti_3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[ScottA]

Yes ScottA, there are two peoples on earth: Those who believe in God and those who reject Him.
Those of the first Adam who sinned and those who follow the second Adam, namely Jesus.

People who are at present of the first Adam, have their chance now to accept Jesus, soon it will be too late.
But the idea of a people; of the Jewish people having any kind of inside track to Salvation because of their claimed identity, is quite wrong and unbiblical. They rejected Jesus and He rejected them. Matthew 21:43 Only .05% of the Jews are Messianic, the rest as Paul and many prophesies tell us will be destroyed. Romans 9:27, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18

All who are born of the flesh are of the first Adam. There are none who are saved in their flesh - the flesh is not saved, but sacrificed. It is only in the spirit that one can actually be saved. The two groups you speak of are the flesh and the spirit, but the scriptures speak of two folds, which are both flesh, but join Christ in spirit, some in death, and some in life.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Thank you very much, Harvest for your excellent replies.

One point I differ with you is where you say that ethnic Israel, by whom; I assume you mean the Jewish people, the State of Israel and the many Jews still in Diaspora, will be redeemed and they will get the New Covenant.
This idea conflicts with the many prophesies that tell us about the virtual demise of Judah, in the OT and Paul makes it clear in Romans 9:27 that only a remnant will survive.
It will be the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal; the Great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath that will wipe out the population of the entire Middle East region and only a few Messianic Jews will survive in bunkers. Isaiah 29:4, + 20 other prophesies saying how the Lord will smash those people. Jeremiah 19:11, Isaiah 22:14, Amos 2:4-5

Jeremiah 50:4-5 In those days, Judah and Israel shall come together and go in tears to Zion.....
That they haven't rejoined as yet, is proved by Ezekiel 37, where the Promised blessings remain unfulfilled.

I am pleased to see you reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory. This false teaching has fooled millions, to their ultimate shame.

This is the real truth. Ethnicity, race, nationality, skin color, etc have nothing to do with a true Israelite of God. They are everyone who is a born again, faithful Christian who keeps the Commandments and bears the fruit of the Spirit.

But God does have a secret, He knows who and where the House of Israel is now. Amos 9:9
It was THEM whom Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 He did not fail in that mission, as the Apostles went out to the Gentiles as they called them, because they did know where Israel was. James 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1, Acts 26:7
The result is the Western Christian nations. The People who do bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

I agree that the full implications of the New Covenant have yet to be fulfilled. They will be when all the Christians who stood firm in their faith during the Lord's Day of wrath, the great world changer soon to happen, gather into all of the holy Land. In the new nation of Beulah. As Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, and Romans 9:24-26 tell us.

Before we attempt to address some of the various texts you supplied in support of the position that during the great Day of the Lord’s wrath nearly all of Israel will be destroyed that only a remnant will survive (of which we are not in disagreement) we should first like to address this other idea of yours in which you surmise, that this great battle “will wipe out the population of the entire Middle East region”. We believe the scriptures contradict this theory and we should like to present some evidence.

It should be recalled that during the Time of Jacobs Trouble when Gog and his allies are attacking Israel the rest of the world will likewise be in turmoil with anarchy reigning throughout the nations, “in which the heavens (the ecclesiastical heavens, the ruling powers, both religious and political) will pass away with a great noise (turmoil and confusion), and the elements (of society) will melt with fervent heat (great tribulation, tumult, strife, human passion, wrath and anarchy); both the earth (the social order as now presently organized under Satan’s control) and the works (pride, rank, aristocracy, selfishness) that are in it will be burned up (swallowed up, dissolved).” 2 Pet 3:10

With the breakdown of society there will be no commerce. The people will be in dire straits with no food and little or no communication. Does anyone actually believe that there will still be news broadcast at this time, access to the internet? With the breakdown of society just whom do you believe will be running such operations, and even if they were where precisely do you imagine they will acquire the power to keep these things up and running when there is no one operating the power plants? Information concerning what is happening in the world will be sporadic at best.

And yet the word of the Lord is that following the destruction of Gog and his armies His miraculous deliverance of Israel He will be magnified and known in the eyes of many nations. How so with very little or no communication abilities left? Why the only way left, word of mouth.

News of the miraculous deliverance in Israel will be spread by word of mouth. But by whom if we were to accept your assumption that there is no one left save a very small remnant of faithful Jews, who would deliver this message? Their infrastructure and communication abilities having been decimated in the onslaught of Gog and his armies Israel will not have this ability, besides they are few and have their own nation to attend to, not to mention the great work of burying the dead, which the Lord indicates will take them the next seven months to perform (Ezek 39:12).

There is only one answer, other survivors. There will be survivors not only of others in the area, but likewise of Gog’s forces themselves.

This is alluded to in Isa 10:18, 19, which we will see in our next post