The Study of Revelation

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bbyrd009

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The only "fact" is that people are walking through Mexico.
given my understanding of Mexico's historical preservation of their Southern border i find this fact highly suspicious fwiw.

iow it has historically been much harder to cross into Mexico than the US, what suddenly changed, i wonder?
besides rising wages in Mexico i mean
 

bbyrd009

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One faction says the truth is that their eventual arrival will hurt America.
The other says the truth is that this is a great benefit to America.
so iow neither side is even discussing nor approaching any truth, as it exists today right now on the ground IRL at least. They are discussing their positions on immigration into..."America" (lol, not "the US," right) iow, and not really addressing anything at all, in that case, right, bc let's be clear, thousands of illegal aliens got in today, and they will tomorrow too, but we aren't discussing them at all right
 
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Willie T

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so iow neither side is even discussing nor approaching any truth, as it exists today right now on the ground IRL at least. They are discussing their positions on immigration into..."America" (lol) iow, and not really addressing anything at all, in that case, right, bc let's be clear, thousands of illegal aliens got in today, and they will tomorrow too, but we aren't discussing them at all right
That is a tactic that both sides use constantly. It is called "a Scarecrow." People will not look at anything real around them, as long as they are distracted by "more urgent" measures, atm.

This is why we experience a new "crises" every few days. (The media refers to them as "news cycles.")
 
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bbyrd009

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That is a tactic that both sides use constantly. It is called "a Scarecrow." People will not look at anything real around them, as long as they are distracted by "more urgent" measures, atm.
boy, i guess, huh? Don't we all remember just a little bit back to all of the hoopla on their southern border, where they were found justified in shooting fence-jumpers even though they came out looking really callous in the deal? Less than two years ago. Why isn't a single soul asking how thousands of Central Americans suddenly got into Mexico?
 

bbyrd009

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“Never before has Mexico announced a state policy on the border, and now it has,” the interior secretary, Miguel Ángel Osorio Chong, said in an interview. “It is absolute control of the southern border.On Southern Border, Mexico Faces Crisis of Its Own

which don't get me wrong the article is full of crap too, but this is like 4 years old or something. They may have never announced a state policy, but their policy did not change 4 years ago either, they have always had pretty rigid control of their southern border, no probs shooting ppl even, only of course this news would be sanitized i guess, same as all the Americans that get shot at our border every day, how many is that do we think, prolly zero right :rolleyes:
 
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Willie T

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Ocasio-Cortez is another. She just came out and admitted she has no idea how she is going to be able to afford an apartment in Washington... (a hint that we should give her money)... yet she swears "a truth" that America will "just pay for" all the free things she feels people should be showered with.

It's a sweet idea, but the truth is that TINFL in this world.... (or, TANSTAAFL), SOMEBODY has to pay for it. And, as long as that SOMEBODY is not her, everything is fine.
 
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Harvest 1874

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facts masquerade as truth quite often i guess

If what is presented has been proven to be in harmony with the divine testimony (likewise with the facts as they were recorded in the history of the church), then it should be taken as truth. This of course presupposes that the individual has taken the time to examine the material for him or herself and has not simply passed judgment on what has been presented based on the thoughts and comments of what others have said.

We are not being judged as a group, but as individuals, its up to each individual to prove all things for himself.

Unfortunately the majority of the prospective members of the body of Christ, the Church are mere "babes in Christ" and as the Apostle states are therefore "unskilled in the word of righteousness", that is to say they are not sufficiently developed (both in the graces and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus) that they might rightly divide the Word of God (distinguish between what is truth and what is error) as they should. This requires both study and practice.

The reason the majority have so much difficulty with understanding Revelation not to mention the Bible in general is because they have not given a good systematic study to the book. A mere reading of the Bible will not suffice. It is the greatest of books and must be given proportionately careful study if we are to understand its many hidden gems.
 

bbyrd009

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The reason the majority have so much difficulty with understanding Revelation not to mention the Bible in general is because they have not given a good systematic study to the book.
gee, i never heard that one before?

i mean, no offense ok, but as soon as you start telling me what is prolly or possibly going to happen in the world tomorrow based upon the Rev i know you are off the tracks, so to speak. If everything in the Rev did not happen yesterday, and again today, then imo seek better interpretations in the context of "the Revelation of Christ," which is not about tomorrow, and certainly not about Christ, Returning imo..

i mean, where does every noob run to, as soon as they dry the baptism water from their ears? The Rev of course, bc we are all obsessed with tomorrow. So imo the Rev also serves as Seer Bait if you will, for those who cannot get with today
 
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Harvest 1874

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Harvest doesn't seem to be aware of this, but I actually agree with much of the boilerplate he copy/pastes. But, that is all it is, just some of my own opinions (that I was originally shown by someone else, in the first place) happening to align with some of theirs. There is not one bit of a way to ever claim any of us got it right...… only what WE think is more accurate than another person or group thinks.

If we follow this line of reasoning there is no truth out there merely the thoughts and opinions of those who have studied the word. Basically they wasted their time studying despite the assurances of the Lord that the Holy Spirit would lead them into the truth.

You state:"There is not one bit of a way to ever claim any of us got it right..."

I would think that if we have a "Thus saith the Lord" that is if we have found our conclusions to be in harmony with the divine testimony, that, that would be proof enough that we have it right. That is if you have any faith in the divine testimony.

Not so much in regards to prophecy yet fulfilled, but in that which has already been fulfilled we can be reasonably assured that we have it right, if our conclusions are based upon scripture and not simply our own or some other mans imaginings.
 
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Harvest 1874

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gee, i never heard that one before?

i mean, no offense ok, but as soon as you start telling me what is prolly or possibly going to happen in the world tomorrow based upon the Rev i know you are off the tracks, so to speak.

I don't believe we have said anything about what is going to happen in the future, what we are presenting has for the most part already taken place, its all recorded in the history of the Church.

This is what Chapter 12 is, its a pin-picture of the whole gospel age all in one chapter.
 

Willie T

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If we follow this line of reasoning there is no truth out there merely the thoughts and opinions of those who have studied the word. Basically they wasted their time studying despite the assurances of the Lord that the Holy Spirit would lead them into the truth.

You state:"There is not one bit of a way to ever claim any of us got it right..."

I would think that if we have a "Thus saith the Lord" that is if we have found our conclusions to be in harmony with the divine testimony, that, that would be proof enough that we have it right. That is if you have any faith in the divine testimony.

Not so much in regards to prophecy yet fulfilled, but in that which has already been fulfilled we can be reasonably assured that we have it right, if our conclusions are based upon scripture and not simply our own or some other mans imaginings.
You almost seem to get it. Maybe in a few more years....
 

Naomi25

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Your words not mine.

It is obvious that you have gotten all hung up on our earlier statement:

“Only those who possess true spiritual enlightenment, (the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit) will be able to grasp the true significance of this chapter, others will most likely continue to believe the various imaginings of men as taught by the church nominal.”

The significance of this statement was that only those in possession of the spirit, guided by the spirit would be able to properly grasp the true significance of this chapter, that it is to be view as seen through the eyes of orthodoxy (the professing church) and not the true church, many having been fully indoctrinated into the teachings of the false church would continue to believe it as it is taught by them.

This does not imply that all that hold to this erroneous view point are not spirit enlightened merely that some have so long been fed off the husk of the doctrines and traditions of men that even though they be spirit begotten they still have difficulty rightly dividing the word (distinguishing truth and error). Or as the Apostle Paul expresses it such are “unskilled in the word of righteousness” being that they are still “babes in Christ”.

Do you imagine that all the spirit begotten are of the same level of development and understanding? Certainly a “youth” would possess greater understanding than a babe, and a mature Christian greater understanding than a youth. Understand I am not implying that I myself am a mature Christian, a copy of God’s dear son, fully grown in both the knowledge and the graces of our Lord Jesus Christ, far from it, but I have been privileged to be in the truth for quite some time now following the Lord’s great mercy when he called me out of darkness into his marvelous light.

I once held many of the erroneous doctrines espoused by the professing church, but like Paul following his conversion I now consider most of these former things as dung, the worthless babblings of men. (Phil 3:8)

Time to move on my sister, and not let words mistakenly misunderstood bog you down.

Hung up? No...it's not really causing me to loose sleep or get agitated, if that's how you mean 'hung up'. I just think that that particular paragraph shows your mentality behind your teaching here. I'm not at all sure your intent is to enter into meaningful conversation with others with the purpose of growing in fellowship and even understanding...because we can always be learning new things from others, even when we least expect it, and even if it doesn't change our doctrinal or theological stance. I think that paragraph shows that you want to soapbox and think that your understanding is...well...superior, because you have the true enlightenment of God. Your words.
Now, I grant you, everyone comes to the table believing their own doctrine to be true. I do not fault you that conviction. But as children of God, as followers of Christ, we step as the apostles did; we woo, we convince, we show with scripture, conversation and the rationality God gave us, that the truth rings outward. We should not need to try and wave our spiritual superiority around, if that is what we feel we have, in the face of others "infancy". We should not need to fall back on calling other immature in their faith, or unenlightened, or dead in true understanding, just because they disagree. God's word speaks for itself. It does not need you, or I to stand for it's true or veracity.
So present your opinion. Present it couched in God's word. And then have the confidence, if you can, of letting God back you up. Do not, from the very start, call into question those who would ask questions or disagree on the basis of your superiority. That does not and cannot lead to edifying conversation or the upholding of God's word.
 
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Harvest 1874

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Since our study on Revelation (being more or less an outline of Revelation as it is interpreted by Bible Students) it has been suggested that it would be better suited if we present it under a blog post, and so I have decided to take this advice and will from henceforth be presenting it there rather than here for those who are interested.
 
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Naomi25

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..."his", specifically the "OP" writer...after reading his FIRST opening post, I was not in agreement with him, or continued reading all his postings.

In general I responded to you, without realizing you were making specific comments about something he said. Sorry.

Gotcha.

Hope you clearly get I am not in agreement with him...thus on that we agree.

God Bless,
Taken

I did suspect, but couldn't be sure. I was a little tongue in cheek (forgive me), with the "disagree to disagree about disagreeing"...but only because it all didn't seem to make much sense. Glad to have it sorted!
 
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Naomi25

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I'm pretty sure I've made it clear from the start that what I was presenting here is what we Bible Students have gleamed from the study of this chapter.

It is what we have come to believe to be true based on our studies of the scriptures, you are however free to disagree and post your own thoughts. Nor did we say or imply that those who differ from us were not spirit begotten, that was wholly something you have concocted. We have tried to explain ourselves (See post#37), but it appears you are still hung up on this and unwilling to move on.

If you believe we have erred in our interpretation of Verse 1 please feel free to post your own viewpoint, we stand by ours as we believe it to be in harmony with the scriptures. You may believe the same as regards your own.

No, not hung up. I just felt led to point out something. But I think I have, so I'll drop it.

In regards to your study. I agree that Revelation must be read as largely symbolic. The genre of the book calls for it. And not just the genre, but John himelf, in the first verse, when he says, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John"... the word "show" here, means 'to convey in signs and symbols'.

As for the study itself...what I have read so far..
I don't agree with the notion (If I have understood you correctly) that the 'orthodox' church is a 'false' church. Nor can I, I believe, get behind the notion that the Papacy is the Antichrist. Can I agree to the idea that some Popes have displayed antichrist-like spirit? Sure. As have many other 'leaders'. As John said, "there have been many"...but there will be more before the one.

Also. How can you biblically back up the notion that in Rev 12 the "moon at her feet" is the "law" while her being "clothed with the sun "is the gospel". It might sound good in theory, but when it comes to things this important I like bible verses to back it up, rather than just theory. Is there anything in scripture that gives you leave to call the gospel 'the sun' or the law 'the moon'? Any references at all? (Honest question, not me riding you.)Thanks.
 
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gee, i never heard that one before?

i mean, no offense ok, but as soon as you start telling me what is prolly or possibly going to happen in the world tomorrow based upon the Rev i know you are off the tracks, so to speak. If everything in the Rev did not happen yesterday, and again today, then imo seek better interpretations in the context of "the Revelation of Christ," which is not about tomorrow, and certainly not about Christ, Returning imo..

i mean, where does every noob run to, as soon as they dry the baptism water from their ears? The Rev of course, bc we are all obsessed with tomorrow. So imo the Rev also serves as Seer Bait if you will, for those who cannot get with today
It was never just the book of Revelation that spoke of a future appearance of Jesus. Here's is a small sample.....
Enoch spoke it...….Jude 14,15
Job.........…...……...Job 19:25,26
Abraham...............Hebrews 11:8,10
David...………………...Psalm 102:16
Isaiah...………………..Isaiah 66:5
Daniel...………………..Daniel 12:1
Jesus...………………...Luke 21:8-11; 25-28; Matthew 24; John 14:3
Angels...………………..Acts 1:11
Paul...…………………...1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
James...………………...James 5:7,8
Peter...…………………..2 Peter 3:11,12
John...…………………...1 John 2:28
 

bbyrd009

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It was never just the book of Revelation that spoke of a future appearance of Jesus. Here's is a small sample.....
Enoch spoke it...….Jude 14,15
Job.........…...……...Job 19:25,26
Abraham...............Hebrews 11:8,10
David...………………...Psalm 102:16
Isaiah...………………..Isaiah 66:5
Daniel...………………..Daniel 12:1
Jesus...………………...Luke 21:8-11; 25-28; Matthew 24; John 14:3
Angels...………………..Acts 1:11
Paul...…………………...1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
James...………………...James 5:7,8
Peter...…………………..2 Peter 3:11,12
John...…………………...1 John 2:28
hey, then keep looking up bro, i have no objections ok.
You will see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up
see, i'm totally agreeing ok