The Study of Revelation

[Harvest 1874]

I don't agree with the notion (If I have understood you correctly) that the 'orthodox' church is a 'false' church.

The professed Church of Christ at its inception and for the most part all throughout the Ephesus stage (the first stage of the Church) and the Smyrna (the second stage) was pure. While the Apostles were present and with the gift of discernment of spirits at their disposal they were able to insure no unsavory elements entered the fold, but not too soon after the last of these apostles died, this unsavory element began to grow, Satan having sown the seeds of the tare element in among the professed Church. The Apostle Paul warned of this when he stated, “After my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock." (Acts 20:29, 30)

The professed church became overwhelmed by this unsavory element and not soon after (beginning in Pergamos stage: meaning “earthly elevation”) committed fornication with the world when it was joined to earthly governments. The professed or orthodox church (Babylon as the Lord calls it, the apostate church) is composed primarily of tares, nominal Christians, Christians in name only, begotten not of truth, but of error. These unfortunately being in the majority have since run all the various church organizations and as such have both dictated and taught what is to be considered acceptable teaching in the orthodox Churches.

Nor can I, I believe, get behind the notion that the Papacy is the Antichrist. Can I agree to the idea that some Popes have displayed antichrist-like spirit? Sure. As have many other 'leaders'. As John said, "there have been many"...but there will be more before the one.

That Papacy (the system, NOT individual Catholics) is THE Antichrist has been well establish and pointed out by all the great reformers. Papacy has fulfilled every declaration concerning the Antichrist which is written in the scriptures.

If you are not familiar with the claims of Papacy you cannot see how it exalts itself and opposes God. It claims that its representative the Pope is "King of Kings and Lord of

Lord's"--"The Prince of the Kings of the earth." As Christ's vicegerent he is the Pa-pa --Pope or Father of mankind, i.e., "The everlasting Father”, “The Prince of peace”, “The Mighty God" (or ruler).

All these and every other title announced by the prophets relative to The Christ in glory during the millennial reign, are considered proper and applicable to the Pope whom they claim to be Christ's vicar or instead of Christ.

Do the scriptures declare the reign of Christ over the nations for a thousand years, and that he must reign until he shall put all enemies under him?

Papacy claims that when exalted to power it did put down all enemies and that for a thousand years it did reign over the kingdoms of earth. (Generally dated I believe from A.D. 792 to 1792). They claim that the Millennial reign of Christ and his saints, Rev. 20, there took place and that the period since the overthrow of Papacy's dominion (1798 A.D.,) is the little season mentioned in verses 3,7 and 8 during which the "devil is loosed," i.e. Protestantism and all infidelity to Papacy.

During her reign over earth's king's she did "rule with a rod of iron," claiming that it was the fulfillment of Psa 2:6-12. [Read it.] Special emphasis was given to verses 10-12, "Be wise now therefore O ye kings....Kiss the Son lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little."

To fulfill this, the kings of earth were obliged to kneel before the Pope and kiss his great toe to receive his blessing and their crowns. (On one occasion, to show the superiority of the Pope-- that he was indeed "King of Kings," the crown after being placed on the head of the prostrate king by the Pope's hand, was kicked off with his foot, then lifted between his feet and thus put on the king.) For centuries no king reigned in Europe without this appointment and blessing of the Popes. To offend was to forfeit their titles and thrones.

Thus, by claiming God's honors and worship, Papacy exalted itself and opposed God. To illustrate the claims of Papacy let me quote a few of its "great swelling words."

It was the boast of Gregory II that "all the kings of the west reverence the Pope as a God on earth." An oft accepted title was "Our Lord God the Pope." At the Lateran council, the Pope was addressed thus: "Thou art another God on earth."

Pope Martin said: "The greatness of Priesthood began in Melchisedec, was solemnized in Aaron, continued in the children of Aaron, perfectionated in Christ, represented in Peter, exalted in the universal jurisdiction and manifested in the Pope. So that through this pre-eminence of my priesthood--having all things subject to me, it may seem well verified in me, that was spoken of Christ, 'Thou hast subdued all things under his feet.'...I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I the vicar of God have both one consistory [co-equal, or on the same footing.] ...Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man but of God, WHAT CAN YOU MAKE OF ME BUT GOD? Again, if prelates of the church be called and counted of Constantine for Gods, I then being above all prelates seem by this reason to be ABOVE ALL GODS. Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to change time and times, to alter and abrogate laws, to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ."

It is marvelous that anyone can doubt that the above was the blasphemous utterance of the Anti-Christ.” (R305)

Keep in mind that the various Popes themselves have merely served as the heads of this organization and are not to be considered THE Antichrist itself. The Antichrist is a system (of error) NOT an individual.

I will address your concerns about the significance of the sun and the moon in my next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

How can you biblically back up the notion that in Rev 12 the "moon at her feet" is the "law" while her being "clothed with the sun "is the gospel". It might sound good in theory, but when it comes to things this important I like bible verses to back it up, rather than just theory. Is there anything in scripture that gives you leave to call the gospel 'the sun' or the law 'the moon'? Any references at all? (Honest question, not me riding you.)Thanks.

It is important to remember that we are dealing in symbolism's here, not realities. Generally a topical study of a particular word to determine its consistent meaning throughout the scriptures would suffice, but often times seeming contradictions will arise, this may be because the word carries both a symbolic and literal meaning. The Bible usually explains the symbol if we take sufficient time and look for comparisons.

The sun represents the gospel light which our Lord first brought to the world during his first advent, likewise according to the Scriptures, it is implied that all the individual members of the church of Christ are like little candles, set to lighten in their own little sphere of influence; but when the kingdom is established, and those who now are said to be candles have been changed, to be with their Lord, the figure also changes, and the Scriptures say, “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” Then it is that “the sun of righteousness shall arise with healing in his beams.” (Matt 13:43; Mal 4:2)

Another use of the symbol sun is found in Isa 30:26 when Christ comes at his Second Advent and establishes his kingdom.

“Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord binds up the bruise of His people and heals the stroke of their wound.”

The “light of the moon” will be like the “light of the sun,” and the light of the sun will increase seven times. In other words, the “moon” the light of the New Covenant will be as bright as the sun. The requirements of the New Covenant will be easily understood by all and infallibly taught. Whereas today we have to prove all things (study and search the scriptures to prove whether something is true or not), in the Kingdom the people will have only to learn all things.

For then will “the knowledge of the Lord cover the earth even as the waters cover the sea” (Isa 11:9) and “they all shall (all) know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord...” Jer 31:30, 34

The figurative sunlight in the Kingdom (the gospel message, the tidings of great joy which is to be to all men) will be seven times brighter than at present. In other words, it will be thoroughly clear and understandable by all, unlike it is presently.

“For then will I turn to the people a pure language (truth, uncluttered with the doctrines of men), that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” Zep 3:9

Now, the people are in darkness; they "stumble at his word," and murmur at his dealings. But, says the prophet, "In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." Isa 29:18, 24.

This spiritual light (the light of the sun) will no longer be confined to the few; but will be universal.

The moon represents God’s law, more specifically the ordinances of Law Covenant.

“Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name).” Jer 31:35

This is not necessarily only the Mosaic Law, but can also represent the law of righteousness that Christ brought to light when he came. The original Mosaic Law was actually pointing to and foreshadowing the reality that was brought to light by Jesus.

The sun represents the gospel age message of salvation that the church preaches to the world, as well as picturing the covering of her and her seed by the righteousness of Christ. The moon represents the Law, which is the foundation and foreshadowing of what Christ did for the world and us. It shows us the legal means by which the Abrahamic Covenant can be fulfilled.

There's more scriptures which depict the sun and the moon symbolically such as in Matt 24:29, but that's for a whole different study someday.

Thus we conclude that woman, "clothed with the sun" represents the Gospel Church covered with the precious promises of God—the marvelous light of the Gospel Message. The literal moon reflects the light of the sun—the Jewish Law is symbolized by the moon. The Law was a shadow of the reflection of the Gospel light. Mind you "The Law" was light—but not the real—only reflected light.

The woman was not under the law, symbolized by the moon—she was under grace—SUNLIGHT; yet the true church, "The Woman" was supported (stood upon) the teachings of the law and the prophets.

Hopefully this may have shed some light as to how we arrived at our conclusions.

 

[Harvest 1874]

oh, "appearance" i can get with all day long, bl, i have no problem with a "future appearance" so to speak. As long as we understand that two eyes are not involved, etc

Precisely

 

[Naomi25]

The professed Church of Christ at its inception and for the most part all throughout the Ephesus stage (the first stage of the Church) and the Smyrna (the second stage) was pure. While the Apostles were present and with the gift of discernment of spirits at their disposal they were able to insure no unsavory elements entered the fold, but not too soon after the last of these apostles died, this unsavory element began to grow, Satan having sown the seeds of the tare element in among the professed Church. The Apostle Paul warned of this when he stated, “After my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock." (Acts 20:29, 30)

The professed church became overwhelmed by this unsavory element and not soon after (beginning in Pergamos stage: meaning “earthly elevation”) committed fornication with the world when it was joined to earthly governments. The professed or orthodox church (Babylon as the Lord calls it, the apostate church) is composed primarily of tares, nominal Christians, Christians in name only, begotten not of truth, but of error. These unfortunately being in the majority have since run all the various church organizations and as such have both dictated and taught what is to be considered acceptable teaching in the orthodox Churches.

I understand the Dispensationalists also see the different churches in Revelation as the different church periods throughout history. However...I'm not sure there is much biblical evidence that gives us leave to do so. We know that there we 7 physical Churches that these letters were sent to in Johns time. And we know that their content has relevance for every church from then to now, as all scripture does.
But what is to say that we must fit each time period into each 'church'? And how do you see evenly divide church idiosyncrasies into time period? Has there not been elements of all in each time period?
And, well, being part of said "orthodox" Church, I would have to disagree with it being called the apostate church. Do we have plenty of those sitting within our pews who don't know Christ? Probably. But that makes them lost and in need of saving, and each time the gospel is preached, we can pray it might take root in one of these 'nominal' christians. God woos at the most surprising of times.

That Papacy (the system, NOT individual Catholics) is THE Antichrist has been well establish and pointed out by all the great reformers. Papacy has fulfilled every declaration concerning the Antichrist which is written in the scriptures.

If you are not familiar with the claims of Papacy you cannot see how it exalts itself and opposes God. It claims that its representative the Pope is "King of Kings and Lord of

Lord's"--"The Prince of the Kings of the earth." As Christ's vicegerent he is the Pa-pa --Pope or Father of mankind, i.e., "The everlasting Father”, “The Prince of peace”, “The Mighty God" (or ruler).

You'll forgive me for not just taking your word on those particular titles....where do you get them, please?

All these and every other title announced by the prophets relative to The Christ in glory during the millennial reign, are considered proper and applicable to the Pope whom they claim to be Christ's vicar or instead of Christ.

Do the scriptures declare the reign of Christ over the nations for a thousand years, and that he must reign until he shall put all enemies under him?

Papacy claims that when exalted to power it did put down all enemies and that for a thousand years it did reign over the kingdoms of earth. (Generally dated I believe from A.D. 792 to 1792). They claim that the Millennial reign of Christ and his saints, Rev. 20, there took place and that the period since the overthrow of Papacy's dominion (1798 A.D.,) is the little season mentioned in verses 3,7 and 8 during which the "devil is loosed," i.e. Protestantism and all infidelity to Papacy.

During her reign over earth's king's she did "rule with a rod of iron," claiming that it was the fulfillment of Psa 2:6-12. [Read it.] Special emphasis was given to verses 10-12, "Be wise now therefore O ye kings....Kiss the Son lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little."

To fulfill this, the kings of earth were obliged to kneel before the Pope and kiss his great toe to receive his blessing and their crowns. (On one occasion, to show the superiority of the Pope-- that he was indeed "King of Kings," the crown after being placed on the head of the prostrate king by the Pope's hand, was kicked off with his foot, then lifted between his feet and thus put on the king.) For centuries no king reigned in Europe without this appointment and blessing of the Popes. To offend was to forfeit their titles and thrones.

Thus, by claiming God's honors and worship, Papacy exalted itself and opposed God. To illustrate the claims of Papacy let me quote a few of its "great swelling words."

It was the boast of Gregory II that "all the kings of the west reverence the Pope as a God on earth." An oft accepted title was "Our Lord God the Pope." At the Lateran council, the Pope was addressed thus: "Thou art another God on earth."

Pope Martin said: "The greatness of Priesthood began in Melchisedec, was solemnized in Aaron, continued in the children of Aaron, perfectionated in Christ, represented in Peter, exalted in the universal jurisdiction and manifested in the Pope. So that through this pre-eminence of my priesthood--having all things subject to me, it may seem well verified in me, that was spoken of Christ, 'Thou hast subdued all things under his feet.'...I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I the vicar of God have both one consistory [co-equal, or on the same footing.] ...Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man but of God, WHAT CAN YOU MAKE OF ME BUT GOD? Again, if prelates of the church be called and counted of Constantine for Gods, I then being above all prelates seem by this reason to be ABOVE ALL GODS. Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to change time and times, to alter and abrogate laws, to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ."

It is marvelous that anyone can doubt that the above was the blasphemous utterance of the Anti-Christ.” (R305)

Keep in mind that the various Popes themselves have merely served as the heads of this organization and are not to be considered THE Antichrist itself. The Antichrist is a system (of error) NOT an individual.

I will address your concerns about the significance of the sun and the moon in my next post.

Again...some of what you claim above, I would rather like to see your source for.
As for the quote by Pope Martin, clearly horrifying. But plenty of men have come before him claiming to be god. Like I said before, John has told us that the spirit of Antichrist has been at work in the world, and we see that spirit manifest in people trying to put themself in the place of God. I don't doubt that many Popes have indeed done that. But every Pope? The RCC as a whole? I don't know...like I said, I'd like to see some sources. Anyone can say anything...

 

[Naomi25]

It is important to remember that we are dealing in symbolism's here, not realities. Generally a topical study of a particular word to determine its consistent meaning throughout the scriptures would suffice, but often times seeming contradictions will arise, this may be because the word carries both a symbolic and literal meaning. The Bible usually explains the symbol if we take sufficient time and look for comparisons.

The sun represents the gospel light which our Lord first brought to the world during his first advent, likewise according to the Scriptures, it is implied that all the individual members of the church of Christ are like little candles, set to lighten in their own little sphere of influence; but when the kingdom is established, and those who now are said to be candles have been changed, to be with their Lord, the figure also changes, and the Scriptures say, “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” Then it is that “the sun of righteousness shall arise with healing in his beams.” (Matt 13:43; Mal 4:2)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that symbolism uses images to portray spiritual realities? These things are still very real, in a way. They are just not literal. I think we must be careful when saying they are not showing "realities", because, well...they are.

The Matt 13:43 verse is a good point. As Christians we are to reflect God's glory, to shine forth, so to speak.
But...is it a logical jump from 'reflecting Christ's glory' to 'the woman is clothed with the gospel'?
I'm not totally discounting it, I'm just asking if it's the most logical answer, if that's where John wants us to go.

Another use of the symbol sun is found in Isa 30:26 when Christ comes at his Second Advent and establishes his kingdom.

“Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord binds up the bruise of His people and heals the stroke of their wound.”

The “light of the moon” will be like the “light of the sun,” and the light of the sun will increase seven times. In other words, the “moon” the light of the New Covenant will be as bright as the sun. The requirements of the New Covenant will be easily understood by all and infallibly taught. Whereas today we have to prove all things (study and search the scriptures to prove whether something is true or not), in the Kingdom the people will have only to learn all things.

Wait, sorry, I'm confused...I thought the 'moon' was the old covenant...the law. But here you just said it's the light of the new covenant?
And, aren't we in the new covenant? You make it sound as if that time was different from now. "Then it was easily understood, but today..."....?

For then will “the knowledge of the Lord cover the earth even as the waters cover the sea” (Isa 11:9) and “they all shall (all) know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord...” Jer 31:30, 34

The figurative sunlight in the Kingdom (the gospel message, the tidings of great joy which is to be to all men) will be seven times brighter than at present. In other words, it will be thoroughly clear and understandable by all, unlike it is presently.

So...you're saying that this 'new covenant' hasn't happened yet? That it will be this "Kingdom". Are you talking about the Millenniual Kingdom? (sorry. Just trying to piece it together)

“For then will I turn to the people a pure language (truth, uncluttered with the doctrines of men), that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” Zep 3:9

Now, the people are in darkness; they "stumble at his word," and murmur at his dealings. But, says the prophet, "In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." Isa 29:18, 24.

This spiritual light (the light of the sun) will no longer be confined to the few; but will be universal.

The moon represents God’s law, more specifically the ordinances of Law Covenant.

“Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name).” Jer 31:35

This is not necessarily only the Mosaic Law, but can also represent the law of righteousness that Christ brought to light when he came. The original Mosaic Law was actually pointing to and foreshadowing the reality that was brought to light by Jesus.

Two things here. First...these things that Isaiah talk about...he's talking about the time after Pentecost. Yes, we still have those who do not see, who mistake doctrine, etc, but we do live in a world that has been gifted the Holy Spirit. The gospel goes forth with a power that cannot be stopped and the number of Christians grow by the day. As promised, Christ grows his Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Secondly, it is quite possible that the Jerimiah verse above is just talking about the sun, moon and stars...as they are. The sun gives light by day, the moon and stars give light by night, but also help us track times and season, plot courses, distances...that sort of thing. There is nothing there that demands us to see "law" in it.
Having said that, I'm not dismissing out of hand your idea that our 'woman' sign is not what you are saying. It's an intriguing idea that I'm giving some thought to.

The sun represents the gospel age message of salvation that the church preaches to the world, as well as picturing the covering of her and her seed by the righteousness of Christ. The moon represents the Law, which is the foundation and foreshadowing of what Christ did for the world and us. It shows us the legal means by which the Abrahamic Covenant can be fulfilled.

There's more scriptures which depict the sun and the moon symbolically such as in Matt 24:29, but that's for a whole different study someday.

Thus we conclude that woman, "clothed with the sun" represents the Gospel Church covered with the precious promises of God—the marvelous light of the Gospel Message. The literal moon reflects the light of the sun—the Jewish Law is symbolized by the moon. The Law was a shadow of the reflection of the Gospel light. Mind you "The Law" was light—but not the real—only reflected light.

The woman was not under the law, symbolized by the moon—she was under grace—SUNLIGHT; yet the true church, "The Woman" was supported (stood upon) the teachings of the law and the prophets.

Hopefully this may have shed some light as to how we arrived at our conclusions.

The image is interesting. I'll do some reading and thinking on it.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I understand the Dispensationalists also see the different churches in Revelation as the different church periods throughout history. However...I'm not sure there is much biblical evidence that gives us leave to do so.

The fulfillment of prophecy itself, that is the history of the church itself is all the evidence needed to prove that the seven churches mentioned are symbolic and symbolize the seven successive stages in the history of the church, covering the period between the first advent and the second coming of Christ. In fact the book of Revelation itself is chiefly history written beforehand.

We know that there we 7 physical Churches that these letters were sent to in Johns time. And we know that their content has relevance for every church from then to now, as all scripture does.

“There are many reasons for concluding that while the messages were given to the seven (physical) churches specified and were applicable to them (in some manner or degree), nevertheless we understand that they have a still wider application to the whole church of Christ, the number seven representing completeness and the order in which they are designated representing the seven different epochs (time periods) in the history of the one true church.

Thus the church at Ephesus would represent the condition of the church in the Apostle’s days at the time of the writing of the messages, while the Laodicean church would represent the church in our day—in the end of this Gospel age.

The other churches would correspondingly represent different epochs intermediate, between the beginning and now. To think otherwise would be to attach more importance to those seven comparatively small churches of Asia Minor than they would seem to have deserved, and would have implied an ignoring of other churches more numerous and more influential than they; as, for instance, the churches at Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth, Colosse, Philippi, Thessalonica, etc. where the majority of the Apostles taught.

Furthermore, the details of the messages given to these seven churches apply to and fit historically the one church of the living God, over every member and branch of which the Lord has a care. This thought, that the seven represented completeness, we find emphasized in the other symbolical representations—in the seven golden candlesticks, the seven stars, etc.”

But what is to say that we must fit each time period into each 'church'? And how do you see evenly divide church idiosyncrasies into time period? Has there not been elements of all in each time period?

According to what was previously stated, it appears that quite definite periods or epochs can be assigned, chronologically, to these “seven churches” as follows:

Ephesus: (meaning “First” or “desirable”)

Covering the period during the lives of the apostles beginning at Pentecost (33 A.D.) to about 100 A.D.

Smyrna: (meaning “Bitter”)

Covering the time of the Pagan persecution, reaching from 100 A.D. to 313 A.D. and the Edict of Milan.

Pergamos: (meaning “Earthly Elevation”)

Embraces the transition period during which the Papacy had its rise, this period lasting from 313 A.D. to 1160 A.D. and the appearance of Peter Waldo.

Thyatira: (meaning “the sweet perfume of sacrifice”)

The space during which the true church was in the wilderness and the apostate church sat as a queen and lived deliciously with the kings of the earth, lasting from 1160 A.D. to the days of John Wycliffe (1371 A.D.)

Sardis: (meaning “that which remains”)

Including a short interval just before the Reformation dating from 1371 A.D. to 1521 A.D. and Luther’s excommunication.

Philadelphia: (meaning “brotherly love”)

The period from the Reformation until recent times (1521 A.D. to 1874 A.D., the date which marked the end of the first 6000 years and the beginning of the millennium, but more importantly the Parousia of our Lord).

Laodicea: (meaning “justice for the people”)

The nominal church of today, from 1874 A.D. to…?

The end of Laodicea has not yet been found. It should be marked by that wonderful proclamation from Psa 46: “Be still! And know that I am God.”

Why these Seven Churches in Asia Minor?

“We are given the names of the cities to which the messages were sent. Seven cities then existing, and which remain (some in ruins) until the present day. Whether the condition of these local churches in John’s time was such as would be specially and respectively blessed by these messages, we know not; but it seems evident that these cities (churches) were not chosen for their importance, but from a peculiarity in their names which fitted God’s purpose.”

I will continue addressing your comments with my next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

And, well, being part of said "orthodox" Church, I would have to disagree with it being called the apostate church.

Your disagreement is not with me but with God, for it is He who has declared the professing church (Christendom, Babylon), apostate.

“In the book of Revelation a woman is used to represent a church—a pure woman a pure church, a false woman an apostate church.

In Rev 17:1- 6 a picture is given of a false woman, disloyal to her engagement, and therefore no longer worthy to be the bride of Christ. This unfaithful woman is branded ‘Babylon.’ We read that she sat upon a beast, a symbolic statement of her control of the power at Rome.

"In her hand this woman held a golden cup full of abominations, and thus symbolically she is represented as making all nations drunk with the wine of false doctrine. The cup suggests that the unfaithful church, symbolized by this woman, had at one time been the receptacle of divine truth—‘Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord’s hand’ (Jer. 51:7). In Rev 17:5 she is called ‘The Mother of Harlots’—a term suggesting a mother church, AND daughter churches which are said to closely resemble the mother (that is as she was declared to be a harlot so too her daughters). As the mother was called ‘Babylon,’ the daughters—so like their mother, bear also the family name.

"A fair examination of all the various denominations throughout Christendom shows that they are more or less in sympathy with the mother system. Rev 18 traces the history of the Apostate church and foretells that Babylon—both Papal and Protestant systems—would fall, and so they have.

“Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!” (Rev 18:2)

But the Lord has a true church, to which he says, ‘Come out of her, my people.’

In other words, many of the Lord’s true people are scattered throughout the various denominations. But now, in the closing of the Gospel age, God sends forth the message that his people shall no longer remain in these denominations (the time for the separation of the Wheat and the Tares has come); the time is coming when the doom of Babylon will be upon her and she will meet her final fate.”

The question is will you share in that fate?

Of his own sheep he states "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27)

‘That is to say, my sheep know my voice and when I call they come, and right now I am calling them to “come out of her” lest you share in her sins and receive of her plagues’.

Many unfortunately dull of hearing for one reason or another are fearful of leaving, afraid of what they would lose by leaving; family, friends, associates, but most importantly is their fear of the loss of the respect and honor of men, of what they might think of them should the chose to depart.

This becomes a very severe test to many, and so the Lord intended it to be.

Do we have plenty of those sitting within our pews who don't know Christ? Probably. But that makes them lost and in need of saving, and each time the gospel is preached, we can pray it might take root in one of these 'nominal' christians. God woos at the most surprising of times.

Although we doubt not that there are a great many non-believers attending the professing church, this however is not the distinction being made, it is not a distinction between believers and non-believers it is a distinction between the true church and the apostate church (professed believers), between true Christians (Wheat) and false Christians (Tares, nominal Christians, Christians in name only).

It’s not the non-believers in attendance in the professing church which makes it apostate; it’s the false Christians, the tare element and the doctrines in which they espouse which make it so.

Continued with next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

We stated:

That Papacy (the system, NOT individual Catholics) is THE Antichrist has been well establish and pointed out by all the great reformers. Papacy has fulfilled every declaration concerning the Antichrist which is written in the scriptures.

If you are not familiar with the claims of Papacy you cannot see how it exalts itself and opposes God. It claims that its representative the Pope is "King of Kings and Lord of

Lord's"--"The Prince of the Kings of the earth." As Christ's vicegerent he is the Pa-pa --Pope or Father of mankind, i.e., "The everlasting Father”, “The Prince of peace”, “The Mighty God" (or ruler).

You'll forgive me for not just taking your word on those particular titles....where do you get them, please?

Understandable.

“King of Kings and Lord of Lord’s” (1 Tim 6:15)

“The Prince of the Kings of the earth” (Rev 1:5)

“The everlasting Father” (Isa 9:6)

“The Prince of peace” (Isa 9:6)

“The Mighty God” (Isa 9:6)

All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." (On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17)

The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh." (Evangelical Christendom, January 1, 1895, pg. 15, published in London by J. S. Phillips)

"The Savior Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958)

From Ferraris’s Ecclesiastical Dictionary, a standard Roman Catholic authority, concerning the extent of papal dignity, authority, power, and infallibility, the following appears under the word papa, article 2nd:

"The pope is of such dignity and highness that he is not simply a man but, as it were, God, and the vicar [representative] of God....Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven, of earth and of hell. Nay, the pope's excellence and power are not only about heavenly, terrestrial and infernal things, but he is also above angels, and is their superior; so that if it were possible that angels could err from the faith, or entertain sentiments contrary thereto, they could be judged and excommunicated by the pope....He is of such great dignity and power that he occupies one and the same tribunal with Christ; so that whatsoever the pope does seems to proceed from the mouth of God....The pope is, as it were, God on earth, the only prince of the faithful of Christ, the greatest king of all kings, possessing the plenitude of power; to whom the government of the earthly and heavenly kingdom is entrusted."

Pope Boniface the Eighth (1309 A.D.), an extremely arrogant individual, howbeit clever man, made the claim to be king of kings and lord of lords; to not only be over the spiritual affairs of this world, but also over the temporal affairs of the world, over king as well as people. This man published a famous bull called "Unarn Sancti," in which he claimed it –was not possible for anyone fit this world to gain eternal salvation except by his permission.

“When we state that the one and only system whose history fits the description of the Antichrist is the Papacy, let no one misunderstand us to mean that every individual Catholic is a man of sin; nor that the priests, nor even the popes of the Church of Rome, are, or have been, the Antichrist. No man is "the Antichrist," "the Man of Sin," described in prophecy. Popes, bishops and others are at most only parts or members of the Antichrist SYSTEM, even as all of the Royal Priests are only members of the true Christ, under Jesus their head, and in the same manner that these in their present condition are together the antitypical Elijah, though no one of them is the Elijah or the Christ foretold.

Notice, further, that the Church of Rome as an ecclesiastical system only IS NOT the "Man of Sin," and is never presented under any figure of a man.

On the contrary, a woman is always the symbol used for a church separate from its head and lord. The true Church is symbolized by a "chaste virgin," while the apostate church, which has fallen away from primitive purity and fidelity to the Lord, is symbolically called "a harlot." As the true "virgin" Church continues to be such to the end of the age, when she is to be united to her Lord and take his name--Christ--so the apostate church was not the Antichrist, or Man of Sin, UNTIL she united with her lord and head, the pope, the claimed vicegerent of Christ, and became a religious empire, falsely styled Christendom--which signifies Christ's Kingdom.” B277

I will continue addressing your other comments as soon as I am able, but right now other projects including our study of Revelation Chapter 12 need my attention, until then may the Lord continue to open your eyes and grant you further insight and understanding into his wonderful word.

 

[Naomi25]

The fulfillment of prophecy itself, that is the history of the church itself is all the evidence needed to prove that the seven churches mentioned are symbolic and symbolize the seven successive stages in the history of the church, covering the period between the first advent and the second coming of Christ. In fact the book of Revelation itself is chiefly history written beforehand.

“There are many reasons for concluding that while the messages were given to the seven (physical) churches specified and were applicable to them (in some manner or degree), nevertheless we understand that they have a still wider application to the whole church of Christ, the number seven representing completeness and the order in which they are designated representing the seven different epochs (time periods) in the history of the one true church.

The thing about this that makes is dubious, is that no matter the time period, you can always find the Church in several states. For example, when John wrote this letter to the 7 Churches, there were 7 actual Churches who were, no doubt, in these states.
If we go thoughout your history periods, where the Church is supposed to 'slot' into the spiritual state found within each of the 7 letters, you would be hard pressed not to be able to find historical evidence for some Churches growing well, while others were persecuted, while others were being foolish and welcoming false teaching...etc. We find that today, just as we can trace it back generations. And of course the state of the church can also depend on where they are in the world and what is happening in that part of the world.
There are too many variables. Are there, in essence, things that we can point to that would support your hypothisis? Of course! But those things are there in every generation.

Thus the church at Ephesus would represent the condition of the church in the Apostle’s days at the time of the writing of the messages, while the Laodicean church would represent the church in our day—in the end of this Gospel age.

Again, the problem I find here, as per my point above, is...what makes you absolutely sure that our Church is the "last church"? Yes, some of todays Churches may have "Laodicean" qualities, but many have qualities of those under faithful persecution.
There is all the chance in the world that a time period is coming that would see all the church in the world having 'Laodicean' qualities. It becomes only pure speculation that today must be it, especially in the face of all these qualities being present throughout all of church history.

The other churches would correspondingly represent different epochs intermediate, between the beginning and now. To think otherwise would be to attach more importance to those seven comparatively small churches of Asia Minor than they would seem to have deserved, and would have implied an ignoring of other churches more numerous and more influential than they; as, for instance, the churches at Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth, Colosse, Philippi, Thessalonica, etc. where the majority of the Apostles taught.

I don't think thinking otherwise has to attach such thoughts. As you've pointed out, 7 is a symbolic number. In those 7 Churches Christ covers the struggles and faults that the Christian Church struggled with then, and will always struggle with. We know that. But if you think focusing in on specific locations is "attaching more importance" to little churches is a stretch, I think also it becomes a stretch to then say that these 7 churches must represent time periods. The text doesn't say that, doesn't call for that or even suggest it.

Furthermore, the details of the messages given to these seven churches apply to and fit historically the one church of the living God, over every member and branch of which the Lord has a care. This thought, that the seven represented completeness, we find emphasized in the other symbolical representations—in the seven golden candlesticks, the seven stars, etc.”



According to what was previously stated, it appears that quite definite periods or epochs can be assigned, chronologically, to these “seven churches” as follows:

Ephesus: (meaning “First” or “desirable”)

Covering the period during the lives of the apostles beginning at Pentecost (33 A.D.) to about 100 A.D.

Smyrna: (meaning “Bitter”)

Covering the time of the Pagan persecution, reaching from 100 A.D. to 313 A.D. and the Edict of Milan.

Pergamos: (meaning “Earthly Elevation”)

Embraces the transition period during which the Papacy had its rise, this period lasting from 313 A.D. to 1160 A.D. and the appearance of Peter Waldo.

Thyatira: (meaning “the sweet perfume of sacrifice”)

The space during which the true church was in the wilderness and the apostate church sat as a queen and lived deliciously with the kings of the earth, lasting from 1160 A.D. to the days of John Wycliffe (1371 A.D.)

Sardis: (meaning “that which remains”)

Including a short interval just before the Reformation dating from 1371 A.D. to 1521 A.D. and Luther’s excommunication.

Philadelphia: (meaning “brotherly love”)

The period from the Reformation until recent times (1521 A.D. to 1874 A.D., the date which marked the end of the first 6000 years and the beginning of the millennium, but more importantly the Parousia of our Lord).

Laodicea: (meaning “justice for the people”)

The nominal church of today, from 1874 A.D. to…?

The end of Laodicea has not yet been found. It should be marked by that wonderful proclamation from Psa 46: “Be still! And know that I am God.”

Why these Seven Churches in Asia Minor?

“We are given the names of the cities to which the messages were sent. Seven cities then existing, and which remain (some in ruins) until the present day. Whether the condition of these local churches in John’s time was such as would be specially and respectively blessed by these messages, we know not; but it seems evident that these cities (churches) were not chosen for their importance, but from a peculiarity in their names which fitted God’s purpose.”

I will continue addressing your comments with my next post.

I seriously question this. You suggest that God wrote to these Churches regardless of their true spiritual condition, but because their names echoed the state of the Church down through the ages? Which would mean the letter sent to these churches at the time would have been useless and confusing.
Also, I cannot agree to such precise dating as you have done. Especially considering my point above, that different states are found within the Church the world over all throughout the Church age. It just seems to me that the above dating and descriptions seem to point to particular churches in particular places at the times in question and, like a wax nose, use them to prove your point, ignoring all the other Churches present at those times in history.

 

[Naomi25]

Your disagreement is not with me but with God, for it is He who has declared the professing church (Christendom, Babylon), apostate.

Annnd....right there. This. This was what I was concerned of from the very beginning and why I got "stuck", as you put it, on that particular issue.
When push comes to shove, it comes back to "I have the real truth, and if you don't agree with my interpretation, you are the false believer."
What...what is the point, at all...of entering into a conversation that is always going to circle back to that?
None what-so-ever. So, good day to you.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Wait, sorry, I'm confused...I thought the 'moon' was the old covenant...the law. But here you just said it's the light of the new covenant?

At present the moon does indeed represent the Old (Law) Covenant, however very soon now when the Mediator has been made complete the Lord will institute a New (Law) Covenant or Testament.

In that day the New (Law) Covenant (figuratively still represented by the moon) will shine even as the sun (the gospel message) does now, because the light of the sun which shines upon it will have increased “seven times”, thus thoroughly illuminating it, and making clear and understandable to all mankind its requirements.

Continued

 

[Harvest 1874]

And, aren't we in the new covenant? You make it sound as if that time was different from now. "Then it was easily understood, but today..."....?

So...you're saying that this 'new covenant' hasn't happened yet? That it will be this "Kingdom". Are you talking about the Millenniual Kingdom? (sorry. Just trying to piece it together)

I believe we’ve had this conversation before, but once again let us examine the facts.

When and to whom is the New Covenant to be made? Is it made with the Church, mankind or with Israel? What say the Scriptures?

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant WITH the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant (the Law Covenant) that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this (the New Covenant) is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Jer 31:31-33

Now someone may suggest that this does not refer to natural Israel, but to spiritual Israel, but a thorough examination of the context will show that the time in which this covenant is to be establish is in the next age not now during the Gospel age, and certainly not with the Church.

Chapter 30 (Verse 3) refers to the regathering of natural Israel as a nation and to the land which was promised their fathers. It also refers to the time when all Israel’s lovers (supportive nations, such as the U.S. and Briton) will forsake her (Verse 14) leaving her to face her enemies (Gog and Magog) alone. For Israel this will be the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Verse 7), when the Lord will miraculously deliver her. At the same time it will bring the “whirlwind” (Verse 23), the great time of trouble upon the world.

Chapter 31 speaks of a remnant of Israel who will survive the sword, Jacobs Trouble (Verse 2), these will form the nucleus of the redeemed nation, the rest (both those who perished during Jacobs Trouble as well as those of former days) will experience a resurrection (as will all mankind), in due time when they are freed from the great prison house, “brought back from the land of the enemy”, death (Verse 16).

(Verses 29 and 30) prove conclusively that the time here is future, viz.

“In those days they shall say no more: ‘“The fathers (Adam) have eaten a sour grape (sinned), and the children’s (all of Adam’s children) teeth are set on edge (The nature of the fathers, being polluted by sin, is transmitted to the children, who come under the death sentence for having the same nature or disposition as the fathers).’ But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes (sins), his teeth shall be set on edge.” “The soul that sins it will die”. (Ezek 18:4)

Thus we come to the day in which the New Covenant will be made with Israel, “Behold, the days are coming (NOT now, but soon following the Lord’s miraculous deliverance of Israel), says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.”

The promise to Abraham was that `In thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed,' (Gen 28:14)

This oath-bound promise is the key to understanding prophecy, and as the central theme of the Bible, it is the key to understanding the importance of Israel in God’s plan. God chose Israel out of all other nations to be a channel of His blessings to the world. This oath was again confirmed to Jacob “...in thee and thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” That is, God’s blessings will flow through Israel—“in thy seed”—to the rest of the world. Gen. 28:14

Many do not see the depth of meaning in God’s promise to Abraham: “I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand on the seashore.” (Gen. 22:17) Note the two parts to this covenant referring to two different aspects of Abraham’s offspring—the channel of God’s blessings. The heavenly or spiritual part (alluded to metaphorically as the “stars of heaven”) will consist of the faithful overcomers whom God has been selecting for the last 2000 years of the Gospel Age. And the earthly part (“the sand of the seashore”) will be the regathered Nation of Israel. God plans to bless everyone who has ever lived through these two classes working together—the faithful Christians as heavenly agents of blessing and the regathered Nation of Israel as earthly agents of blessing. Gal. 3:8

The clear intimation of the teachings of the Scriptures (Jer. 31:27-40) is that Jerusalem will become the Capital City of the world, "for out of Zion (the spiritual phase of the kingdom) shall go forth the Law, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem (the earthly phase of the kingdom)," "And many people shall go and say, Come ye and let us go up to the mountain (Kingdom) of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob: and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths." (Isa. 2:3.)

If the New Covenant were made with the entire world, and not exclusively with Israel why would it be necessary for the people to go up to the house of the God of Jacob (Israel) in order to receive instruction from the Lord?

“Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.” Zech 8:23

This text is an eye opener; it not only states that in those days all the nations of every language (the number “ten” representing completeness, thus implying everyone) shall look to the Jew for guidance and instruction, but the statement, “we have heard that God is with you” should seal the deal so to say as it implies that God is not with anyone else, that if one would receive of the same blessings flowing to Israel they themselves must become “Israelite's indeed”, the people of God. The New Covenant will be made with Israel and Israel alone if any would share in this covenant they must become Israelite's themselves.

Israel’s influence among the other nations is well depicted by the prophet Micah (5:7) in these words, "And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass that tarries not for man, nor waits for the sons of men."

Please see our blog study entitled, The Mediator and the New Covenant for a further understanding of these things.

 

[Harvest 1874]

We stated:
“For then will I turn to the people a pure language (truth, uncluttered with the doctrines of men), that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” Zep 3:9

Now, the people are in darkness; they "stumble at his word," and murmur at his dealings. But, says the prophet, "In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." Isa 29:18, 24.

Two things here. First...these things that Isaiah talk about...he's talking about the time after Pentecost.

This is where the importance of being able to rightly divide the word of God into its proper times and seasons comes into play.

To what age does our prophecy apply? Does it apply to Gospel age or to the next age?

A through examination of the context going back to Chapter 28 reveals that the Lord was referring to Babylon, the church nominal when he spoke of Ephraim (Verse 1) being “overcome by wine” (false doctrines) viz.

“They also have erred through wine, and through intoxicating drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink, they are swallowed up by wine, they are out of the way through intoxicating drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.” (Verse 7) Compare with Rev 17:2

And thus he prophesied her fall that is to say Ephraim would be “trampled underfoot” (Verse 3, Compare Rev 18:2, 5).

Nevertheless, “In that day”, in that same day or time period while the professing church was being overcome by false doctrines the Lord would be a strength for the “remnant of his people” (the true church) who would “turn back the battle at the gate” (who would drive the enemy and his followers, false Christians and their errors from Zion’s walls, the true church, Verses 5 and 6). This would be accomplished by the “sickle of truth” which is even now dividing the “wheat” (true Christians) from the “tares” (false Christians). Compare Rev 14:15, 16

Chapter 29 continues the narrative of the blindness which encompasses the whole professing church.

“Pause and wonder! Blind yourselves and be blind! They are drunk, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with intoxicating drink. For the Lord has poured out on you the spirit of deep sleep (a spiritual stupor), and has closed your eyes (seeing you have rejected the Lord’s Word), namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.” (A vail is cast over the teachings of the Lord both those of the prophets and the Apostles, Verse 9 and 10)

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men (Compare Psa 50:16; 1 Tim 4:1; 1 John 4:18), Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder (likewise spoken of as the Lords “awesome work, his unusual act” in the previous chapter. This “marvelous work” this “unusual act” will not only cover the miraculous deliverance of Israel during the great time of trouble, but likewise will see the downfall of the professing church both Catholic and Protestant alike being destroyed in the great time of trouble, this will definitely be strange and unusual act its adherents who believed the various churches were God’s representatives before the people); For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.” (Verses 13 and 14)

Then we come to Verse 17 which denotes the time of our Isaiah text, “Is it not yet a very little while till Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be esteemed as a forest?”

Lebanon shall become a “fruitful field” and a “forest” as in days of old with the cedars of Lebanon. (The cedars of Lebanon are a symbol of everlasting life, which mankind will receive—if obedient.) Thus verse 17 is saying that the devastation of earth during the great time of trouble will be turned into prosperity.

"In that day (following the great time of trouble, when the kingdom is established) shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." Isa 29:18, 24

The Jews’ understanding of God’s plan and doctrine (particularly that pertaining to Christ) and likewise the world of mankind’s understanding will become clear.

Thus our other text quoted: “For then (following the Lord’s having poured out all his fierce anger upon the earth during the great time of trouble) will I turn to the people a pure language (truth, uncluttered with the doctrines of men), that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” Zep 3:9

I will continue addressing your comments in my next post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Yes, we still have those who do not see, who mistake doctrine, etc, but we do live in a world that has been gifted the Holy Spirit. The gospel goes forth with a power that cannot be stopped and the number of Christians grow by the day. As promised, Christ grows his Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

The Holy Spirit has been given to but a few as in comparison with great bulk of mankind who lie in darkness and ignorance and although the Gospel has gone forth for over two thousand years now relatively few who have heard it have accepted its message this mostly because of the various and distorted views taught by the professing church.

Yes the number of Christians has increased, but these for the most part have consisted of “tares” nominal Christians, Christians in name only. This even as the Lord alluded it would be at the end of the age, viz. that the tares would be so numerous that they would out-number the wheat.

But this was never the intention of the Gospel age and its message, it was not sent forth to convert the world, it was sent forth to select out of mankind a select few, a “little flock” who would follow in the Masters footsteps and enter into covenant relationship with the Father, a “covenant by sacrifice” (Psa 50:5) and as such if proven faithful even until death would compose the body of Christ.

It’s true the gates of hell cannot prevail against the true church, but it has already prevailed against the false or nominal church.

The nominal church has likewise entered into a covenant, but not one by sacrifice nor with God, theirs is a covenant with death and with Hell.

The following text has a double application in that it applies to both the nominal fleshly house (natural Israel), and to the nominal spiritual house, the professing church, but here we are more concerned with the latter.

“Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men (disdainful teachers), who rule this people who are in Jerusalem (the nominal church, “who say they are Jews [Christians], but are not” Rev 3:9), because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol (hell) we are in agreement (declaring that it is not an enemy, but a friend, that the dead are not really dead but that it is the doorway to the next life, that the soul is immortal, thus believing that,) When the overflowing scourge passes through (the great time of trouble), It will not come to us (because we will be miraculously raptured away before then, and will not experience death), For we have made lies (false teachings) our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”(Isa 28:14, 15)

We stated:
“Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name).” Jer 31:35

Secondly, it is quite possible that the Jeremiah verse above is just talking about the sun, moon and stars...as they are. The sun gives light by day, the moon and stars give light by night, but also help us track times and season, plot courses, distances...that sort of thing. There is nothing there that demands us to see "law" in it.

Many things spoken in the scriptures carry double meanings some having a literal meaning some spiritual, and many having both, it is up to the discerning student of the word led by the spirit to seek which.

 

[Naomi25]

I believe we’ve had this conversation before, but once again let us examine the facts.

Ah...yes, you're correct in this...I think you're answering my posts from last week....

 

[Trekson]

A lot of work for nothing. And while this book is chock full of revelations, the title of the book is Revelation (Ἀποκάλυψις = Apokalupsis) from 1:1.

1. Just like every other book of the Bible, Revelation is to be read and studied in its plain literal sense, notwithstanding the many symbols and metaphors used. They are generally explained and clarified.

2. Revelation is generally chronological, not cyclic as some imagine. We begin in the first century and end up in the eternal state of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

3. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" after chapter 3. That in itself is significant.

I agree with all three points but perhaps an assumption is made about #3. Although the word "church" isn't used, there are many other phrases used that are describing the church. I think that because of the GT, the church goes from being a corporate entity it goes back to individual representatives to share the gospel as meeting together in public will be illegal.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP only.

the book of Revelation is a good book to study.

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this.

#1. I agree with you in starting at chapter #12. and here's why

#2. Just because a vision is shown in heaven do not necessary mean that the event took place in heaven. because chapter 12 is a vision of the birth of christ. if one would keep one hand on Chapter 12 and read Matthews chapter 2 all the player/Actors symbolically recorded in Revelation chapter 12 is in Matthews chapter 2.

the first half of chapter 12 in Revelation reveals the Birth of Christ
and the second half of the chapter is the church in the wilderness, and it's persecution of the saints.

 

[CoreIssue]

Addressing the OP only.

the book of Revelation is a good book to study.

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this.

#1. I agree with you in starting at chapter #12. and here's why

#2. Just because a vision is shown in heaven do not necessary mean that the event took place in heaven. because chapter 12 is a vision of the birth of christ. if one would keep one hand on Chapter 12 and read Matthews chapter 2 all the player/Actors symbolically recorded in Revelation chapter 12 is in Matthews chapter 2.

the first half of chapter 12 in Revelation reveals the Birth of Christ
and the second half of the chapter is the church in the wilderness, and it's persecution of the saints.

The second half is believing Israel, specifically the 144,000 chosen, 12,000 from each tribe protected it in Petra.

The rest of the offspring would be the tribulation saints. There is a zero mention of the church or Christians after the removal of the church lampstands.

Remember, the Holy Spiri is in members of the church and the AC cannot be revealed until the Holy Spirit restrainer is removed.
.

 

[101G]

The second half is believing Israel, specifically the 144,000 chosen, 12,000 from each tribe protected it in Petra.

The rest of the offspring would be the tribulation saints. There is a zero mention of the church or Christians after the removal of the church lampstands.

Remember, the Holy Spiri is in members of the church and the AC cannot be revealed until the Holy Spirit restrainer is removed.
.

there is only one church

ps, the church is in the HOLY GHOST

 

[amadeus]

there is only one church

ps, the church is in the HOLY GHOST

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:21