Who is the Whore of babylon

[brakelite]

The "gates of Hell" prevailing has to do with WHO wins - Christ and His Church - or Satan.
Christ wins.

It has to do with the power of good over evil.

Indeed, and that battle isn't over yet...

Revel.6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled...

Revel.16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revel.18:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration...

….16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

As you say, it has to do with the power of good over evil...her time is coming. She will NOT prevail over the righteous.

Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Canonized in 1839 by Pope Gregory XVI and proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius IX in 1871, one of the most widely read Catholic authors and the patron saint of confessors, is one Bishop Alphonsus Ligouri. I am sure you know him. He said...

"...we find in the obedience to the words of his priests --- Hoc est Corpus Meum ---
God Himself descends on the altar, that he comes whenever they call him, and as often as they call him, and places himself in their hands, even though they should be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others. 'Oh, how very great is their power!' -The Dignity of the Priesthood by Ligouri p. 26,27

And NOTHING you just quoted from Alphonsus Liguori states that it is the PRIEST who "creates" the Eucharist.
Try again . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Invisible? If they were so invisible how come the Papal inquisitors spent so much time trying to destroy them? Yes, those so called heretics were a light, which is why Rome tried constantly to put it out.
And of course they were all heretics, so says the victor. But even though some of them may have believed a little differently to Rome, so what? Is that sufficient reason to destroy them? To torture them into agreement? To threaten them with loss of life and property? Even to the third generation??? What kind of Christianity coerces people into any belief system? Answer: No kind of Christianity.
So tell me, just as one example. What was the heresy of the Waldensians, apart from not accepting papal authority?

Gee – where to begin??

Ummmmm, let’s forget about the fact that they didn’t even exist until the 12th century. Because Peter Waldo and his preachers didn’t have any formal theological training or education - some of their aberrant teachings were:

- Their sect was divided into TWO groups – The “Perfect” and he “Friends” (also known as the “Believers”). The “perfect” took a vow of poverty and chastity. Married people who wanted to join their group were allowed to dissolve their marriages – without consulting their spouses.
This is an affront to virtually EVERY Christian group – Protestant OR Catholic.
The “Perfect” were not allowed to engage in manual labor – which was reserved for the lower class of “Friends”.

- They promoted the unbiblical idea of Sola Scriptura.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed, and that battle isn't over yet...

Revel.6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled...

Revel.16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revel.18:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration...

….16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

As you say, it has to do with the power of good over evil...her time is coming. She will NOT prevail over the righteous.

Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And if you knew your Bible - which you apparently don't - you would understand that the "Harlot" is apostate Jerusalem and NOT a Church.

- Apostate Jerusalem was drunk with the blood of the martyrs and God's prophets- NOT the Catholic Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem was in bed with Pagan Rome against the Church - NOT the Catholic Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem sat on SEVEN hills - NOT the Catholic Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem "The faithful City" was called a "Harlot" by Isaiah (Isa. 1:21)- NOT the Catholic Church.

Do your homework and stop allowing yourself to be spoon-fed from your false prophetess Ellen. G. White . . .

 

[brakelite]

And NOTHING you just quoted from Alphonsus Liguori states that it is the PRIEST who "creates" the Eucharist.
Try again . . .

You are correct...he says nothing about creating. But what he does say is just as blasphemous. As blasphemous as the ritual itself.

Peter Waldo and his preachers

The Waldensians existed a long time before Waldo came on the scene. Known also as the Vaudois, they lived in the mountains after being chased there by your forbears as early as the 5th century, Vigilantius it is believed being the first to organise the Waldenses into a collective group. In those early years according to Jerome, they were known as Leonists, after Vigilantius birthplace, Lyon.

And if you knew your Bible - which you apparently don't - you would understand that the "Harlot" is apostate Jerusalem and NOT a Church.

- Apostate Jerusalem was drunk with the blood of the martyrs and God's prophets- NOT the Catholic Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem was in bed with Pagan Rome against the Church - NOT the Catholic Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem sat on SEVEN hills - NOT the Catholic Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem "The faithful City" was called a "Harlot" by Isaiah (Isa. 1:21)- NOT the Catholic Church.

Do your homework and stop allowing yourself to be spoon-fed from your false prophetess Ellen. G. White . . .

Of course its Jerusalem. They killed so many more Christians than did Papal Rome...not. The number of Christians persecuted by Jerusalem in those early years was negligible compared to the millions destroyed by Papal Rome. Jesudalem is an insignificant blip on the radar when it comes to any opposition to the church of Christ. But Rome, both pagan and papal, have historically been the church's worst enemy...and still is. And I don't need EGW to tell me anything...I could go to any reformer from the 12th century on and find the same teaching. So tell me something. If Jerusalem is the whore today, who or what is the beast that she is riding, when one considers that every beast in prophecy depicts a kingdom or nation? How are the colours, purple, scarlet, and gold, she is wearing significant to Jerusalem? What is the golden cup she holds? What's in it? How are nations being made drunk (mad) by imbibing that same cup?

 

[mjrhealth]

Mother and daughter still duking it out

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are correct...he says nothing about creating. But what he does say is just as blasphemous. As blasphemous as the ritual itself.

No – YOU said that the Church claims that the priest “CREATES” the Body and Blood of Christ. Are you now conceding that you LIED and just made up the whole thing??

As for what St. Alphonsus Liguori wrote – there is NOTHING that is “blasphemous”.
If you were familiar with his writings – which you obviously aren’t – you would know that they were very passionate and excitable – but not blasphemous. Besides – the Church doesn’t claim ANY of his writings to be infallible so your entire case goes right out the window . . .

The Waldensians existed a long time before Waldo came on the scene. Known also as the Vaudois, they lived in the mountains after being chased there by your forbears as early as the 5th century, Vigilantius it is believed being the first to organise the Waldenses into a collective group. In those early years according to Jerome, they were known as Leonists, after Vigilantius birthplace, Lyon.

Let’s suspend disbelief and assume that you are correct – just for the sake of argument. You STILL can’t account for the first FIVE ENTURIES of Christianity and this mythical faithful “remnant” of yours.

Of course its Jerusalem. They killed so many more Christians than did Papal Rome...not. The number of Christians persecuted by Jerusalem in those early years was negligible compared to the millions destroyed by Papal Rome. Jesudalem is an insignificant blip on the radar when it comes to any opposition to the church of Christ. But Rome, both pagan and papal, have historically been the church's worst enemy...and still is. And I don't need EGW to tell me anything...I could go to any reformer from the 12th century on and find the same teaching. So tell me something. If Jerusalem is the whore today, who or what is the beast that she is riding, when one considers that every beast in prophecy depicts a kingdom or nation? How are the colours, purple, scarlet, and gold, she is wearing significant to Jerusalem? What is the golden cup she holds? What's in it? How are nations being made drunk (mad) by imbibing that same cup?

Spoken like aa true disciple of the false prophetess, Ellen G. White.

Unfortunately for YOU and everybody else who believes that the Book of Revelation has YET to be revealed – much of it ALREADY HAS been revealed. More and more scholars are accepting the fact that the Whore of Babylon (Rome) is apostate Jerusalem based on what Scripture already says – as I showed you in my last post.

Finally – I am openly challenging you to substantiate you asinine charge that the Catholic Church killed “millions”.
And don’t give me the usual SDA garbage taken from your false prophetess Ellen G. White’s opinions. I want ACTUAL historical evidence . . .[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[gadar perets]

Finally – I am openly challenging you to substantiate you asinine charge that the Catholic Church killed “millions”.
And don’t give me the usual SDA garbage taken from your false prophetess Ellen G. White’s opinions. I want ACTUAL historical evidence . . .

Please explain the article found here. Here is an excerpt.

For centuries people were burned at the stake, stretched to death or otherwise tortured for failing to be Roman Catholic. But, if research released by the Vatican is right, the Inquisition was not as bad as one might think.

According to the documents from Vatican archives relating to the trials of Jews, Muslims, Cathars, witches, scientists and other non-Catholics in Europe between the 13th and the 19th centuries, the number actually killed or tortured into confession during the Inquisition was far fewer than previously thought.

Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in 1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. Some historians are convinced that millions died.

But according to Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome and curator of the 783-page volume released yesterday, only 1% of the 125,000 people tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain were executed.​

If Borromeo's numbers are correct, that means 1,250 people were murdered by the Catholic Church. Does that not disturb you? I doubt the numbers were that low, but even if they were, it is a sign that the Catholic leaders during that time period were downright evil unbelievers. Add those murders to the plethora of people that were sexually abused by Catholic clergy even to today and you have clear signs that the Catholic institution is a carnal church at best and not of YHWH or Yeshua at the worst.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Please explain the article found here. Here is an excerpt.

For centuries people were burned at the stake, stretched to death or otherwise tortured for failing to be Roman Catholic. But, if research released by the Vatican is right, the Inquisition was not as bad as one might think.

According to the documents from Vatican archives relating to the trials of Jews, Muslims, Cathars, witches, scientists and other non-Catholics in Europe between the 13th and the 19th centuries, the number actually killed or tortured into confession during the Inquisition was far fewer than previously thought.

Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in 1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. Some historians are convinced that millions died.

But according to Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome and curator of the 783-page volume released yesterday, only 1% of the 125,000 people tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain were executed.​

If Borromeo's numbers are correct, that means 1,250 people were murdered by the Catholic Church. Does that not disturb you? I doubt the numbers were that low, but even if they were, it is a sign that the Catholic leaders during that time period were downright evil unbelievers. Add those murders to the plethora of people that were sexually abused by Catholic clergy even to today and you have clear signs that the Catholic institution is a carnal church at best and not of YHWH or Yeshua at the worst.

Yup – it bothers me ALMOST as much as the almost 72,000 Catholics butchered by Henry VIII.

It also disturbs me ALMOST as much as the 45,000 Catholics his daughter Elizabeth I murdered and starved to death during HER reign of terror.

There were MANY other smaller incidents of Protestants murdering Catholics such as the Martyrs of Gorkum - where 19 Catholic clerics and friars were hung by the neck by murdering Calvinists In the 16th century.

Believe me – there is PLENTY of blood on EVERYBODY’S hands.
READ your history . . .

 

[gadar perets]

Believe me – there is PLENTY of blood on EVERYBODY’S hands.
READ your history . . .

Protestantism isn't my history. I became a born again believer right out of Catholicism. When I realized how much blood is on the hands of Catholics and how false their doctrines are I could no longer remain one. Praise be to YHWH for calling me out.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Protestantism isn't my history. I became a born again believer right out of Catholicism. When I realized how much blood is on the hands of Catholics and how false their doctrines are I could no longer remain one. Praise be to YHWH for calling me out.

You left the Catholic Church for another version of Christianity and you claim that you’re NOT a Protestant??

YOU are a TEXTBOOK example of what a Protestant is.
There are only THREE kinds of Christian - and by "Christian" I mean Trinitarian:
- Catholic
- Orthodox
- Protestant

Everything else is an offshoot of Christianity.
What planet are YOU from??

 

[epostle]

Protestantism isn't my history. I became a born again believer right out of Catholicism. When I realized how much blood is on the hands of Catholics and how false their doctrines are I could no longer remain one. Praise be to YHWH for calling me out.

Protestantism isn't your history but you accept their false histories. When I realized how much blood is on the hands of Catholics is trolling. It's an anti-Catholic SADISTIC zinger.
"how false their doctrines are" is another sadistic zinger. You are incapable of discussing which doctrines and scholars you think are false. Your mindless unsupported generalizations are insulting.
There are lots of Protestant ministers and scholars who become Catholic, so "doctrines" is not the issue.

 

[gadar perets]

You left the Catholic Church for another version of Christianity and you claim that you’re NOT a Protestant??

I left the Catholic Church for Messiah Yeshua, not for another church or another version of Christianity. He led me to where I am today which is not in Catholicism or Protestantism.

There are only THREE kinds of Christian - and by "Christian" I mean Trinitarian:
- Catholic
- Orthodox
- Protestant

Everything else is an offshoot of Christianity.
What planet are YOU from??

Since I am not a Christian, then I cannot be a Protestant.

I am from planet Earth, but I am not of this world. My citizenship is in heaven.

 

[gadar perets]

Protestantism isn't your history but you accept their false histories. When I realized how much blood is on the hands of Catholics is trolling. It's an anti-Catholic SADISTIC zinger.

It was a statement of fact that even BOL agrees with. The only thing in question is how much blood is on their hands.

"how false their doctrines are" is another sadistic zinger. You are incapable of discussing which doctrines and scholars you think are false.

I am perfectly capable of discussing which doctrines are false. I did not know I had to since BOL and I were not discussing that issue. Here are just a few of her many false doctrines; trinity, changing Sabbath to Sunday, transubstantiation, indulgences, infant baptism, Mary as the mother of God, perpetual virginity of Mary. Which one would you like to discuss first other than transubstantiation since we already discussed that here?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I left the Catholic Church for Messiah Yeshua, not for another church or another version of Christianity. He led me to where I am today which is not in Catholicism or Protestantism.

Since I am not a Christian, then I cannot be a Protestant.

I am from planet Earth, but I am not of this world. My citizenship is in heaven.

No – you’re a Protestant – make NO mistake about that.
You just a Lone Ranger Protestant – which is ANTI-BIBLICAL.

Lone Rangers like yourself need to read the entire chapter of 1 Cor. 12. While you’re at it – you should heed the Word of God when it commands us to NOT forsake the assembling of ourselves – the CHURCH.

You see, my Biblically-bankrupt friend – the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ on earth (Eph. 1:22-23).
It is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, which is Jesus (1 Tim. 3:15).

It’s not Christ OR the Church. He and His Church are INDIVISIBLE (Acts 9:4-5) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It was a statement of fact that even BOL agrees with. The only thing in question is how much blood is on their hands.

Actually – you’re leaving OUT the blood on the hands of YOUR splintered Protestant sects which I pointed out with great specificity.

Funny how selective your memory is . . .

I am perfectly capable of discussing which doctrines are false. I did not know I had to since BOL and I were not discussing that issue. Here are just a few of her many false doctrines; trinity, changing Sabbath to Sunday, transubstantiation, indulgences, infant baptism, Mary as the mother of God, perpetual virginity of Mary. Which one would you like to discuss first other than transubstantiation since we already discussed that here?

As for your rejection of the Trinity – which is THE basic tenet of Christianity – you cannot be a true follower of Christ, because HE taught it.

So, you may be right. You’re NOT a Protestant because Protestants are Christians – a title that YOU reject . . .

 

[gadar perets]

No – you’re a Protestant – make NO mistake about that.
You just a Lone Ranger Protestant – which is ANTI-BIBLICAL.

Lone Rangers like yourself need to read the entire chapter of 1 Cor. 12. While you’re at it – you should heed the Word of God when it commands us to NOT forsake the assembling of ourselves – the CHURCH.

The true Body of Messiah throughout the world is the true "church", not the Catholic church with its head in Rome. BTW, our congregation assembles every YHWH given holy day throughout the year and we exercise all that the Apostles taught in their epistles. Your "church" assembles on every man made "holy" day throughout the year. Catholics think their church has the authority to change YHWH's weekly Sabbath day to Sunday, but, in reality, the Catholic church has done nothing but lead her followers and her harlot daughters into sin.

You see, my Biblically-bankrupt friend – the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ on earth (Eph. 1:22-23).
It is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, which is Jesus (1 Tim. 3:15).

It’s not Christ OR the Church. He and His Church are INDIVISIBLE (Acts 9:4-5) . . .

I agree. We differ on how "church" is defined.

 

[gadar perets]

As for your rejection of the Trinity – which is THE basic tenet of Christianity – you cannot be a true follower of Christ, because HE taught it.

trinity is THE basic tenet of Christianity, that is, post-Paul Christianity.

Yeshua taught no such thing EVER. He ALWAYS taught his Father was greater than he. I agree that the

So, you may be right. You’re NOT a Protestant because Protestants are Christians – a title that YOU reject . . .

Finally, you understand that I am not a Protestant or a Christian. I am a follower of Messiah Yeshua and will NOT bow down to the Pope or accept the false doctrines of the Catholic church or Protestant church.

 

[epostle]

It was a statement of fact that even BOL agrees with. The only thing in question is how much blood is on their hands.

Scholarly documentation must be frightening for you, since all you do is rant meaningless zingers. Why don't you find some reputable sources of RECENT historians to back up your ignorant insults?

I am perfectly capable of discussing which doctrines are false. I did not know I had to since BOL and I were not discussing that issue. Here are just a few of her many false doctrines; trinity, changing Sabbath to Sunday, transubstantiation, indulgences, infant baptism, Mary as the mother of God, perpetual virginity of Mary. Which one would you like to discuss first other than transubstantiation since we already discussed that here?

If you hate the Catholic Church, you hate Jesus. Your offensive remarks about the Eucharist are similar to the attempted desecration
of the Satanic Black Mass, but not as severe as them. There is no point in discussion anything with you. You borrow from the SDA, the JW's, fundamentalists. To my knowledge, Messianic Jews, or Hebrew Christian, or what-ever-group you're with this week, ARE NOT AS ANTI-CATHOLIC AS YOU.
What we should discuss is the psychological causes and effects of apostasy.

 

[epostle]

Finally, you understand that I am not a Protestant or a Christian. I am a follower of Messiah Yeshua and will NOT bow down to the Pope or accept the false doctrines of the Catholic church or Protestant church.

You seem to bow down to the teachings of your rabbi or leader. Or maybe you are the leader.