Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
This is why we have to have a Devine intervention. Good Analogy! Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, I believe we receive it before our brain even gets the news.
Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied
- Thread starter Enoch111
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Now THIS is truth! The Spirit operates sometimes without us even knowing! And the greatest part about the whole process is that is gives God 100% of the glory; I could not have chosen Him had He not chosen me! Thank you!
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
All those that are born from above are God’s children John 3:3; 5; 6; Jo 1:13.
SALVATION IS OF GOD!!! Never in any human perspective. The reason you say this is because you believe man has a free will which is alien to the Bible. Apparently, you have not learned from the example I gave about Lazarus. So be it.
The “all” in verse 6 must be qualified and these are those that the Father drawn and given to Jesus, John 6:44 to the rescue again. Imagine if God saved everybody, no one will be in hell? However, Scripture teaches hell will heavily be populated.
[QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 504268, member: 7886"]Mat 1:21, And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
How does this substantiate your pov?[/QUOTE]
Again, this comes down to John 6:44: “All that the Father gives me will come to me” and who are these? Those that Jesus died for, His people.
There are many on this thread who are sharing the true Gospel with you. Why not pay heed and forget what Arminis taught.
To God Be The Glory
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Again, this comes down to John 6:44: “All that the Father gives me will come to me” and who are these? Those that Jesus died for, His people.
There are many on this thread who are sharing the true Gospel with you. Why not pay heed and forget what Arminis taught.
To God Be The Glory[/QUOTE]
I fear that the reason so many cling to Arminius is because we have this misconception that the Scriptures are all about how I can be saved, when the real purpose of the Scriptures and conversion is to bring glory to God!
That is not Good News but the exact opposite, because you failed to connect that verse with the rest of Scripture.
What does Matthew 1:21 say precisely?
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Who are His people? Those who believe on Him.
Does He save them? Absolutely.
Can all sinners believe on Him and become His people? Absolutely
And he is the propitiation for our sins: [HIS PEOPLE] and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [ALL PEOPLE] (1 John 2:2)
Now can you see why you are totally mistaken?
1.) This is just not true. NO SINNER can believe on Him! Not a single one! Not unless Christ first chooses to open their eyes and hearts to the Gospel and to transform their hearts.
2.) Notice how you had to add the whole "All men" at the end, and why? Because what you are reflecting onto the something that just isn't there. The 'whole world' means every type of man. Remember; Salvation was thought to be for the Jews only, and some still felt that the Jews were somehow superior. He is not saying that every single human being's sins were removed, but that Jews and Greeks, slaves and free, men and women, ALL kinds of people from all different walks of life could be saved by the same blood, and have the same promises. And for the Greeks, this was a big deal. They were put on par with the Jews. This is the message of the passage, and is many times restated and defended elsewhere in Scripture.
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
Sorry to disappoint you.
Of course NOT. The devils believe and they tremble! Only those that the Father gives to Jesus will believe John 6:44; 3:16
1 John 2:2 has always been read out of context. Imagine if Jesus is the propitiation also of the sins of the whole world there would NO ONE be in hell? However, Scripture teaches hell will heavily be populated.
To God Be The Glory
Supernatural faith (over and above saving faith) is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Saving faith is a yes response to the message of the gospel.
If I told you that the cherry pie was poisoned, I think that you would eat the apple pie. Now, you would still have the option of not believing that I am truthful in telling you that the cherry pie is poisoned, in which case you might still eat the cherry pie and die. It would be because you chose not to believe me for your love of cherry pie.
It is not alien to the Bible. I can think of two verses off hand:
Jos 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
The idea that God chose you either for heaven or hell and that you can do nothing about where God has chosen to put you is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Spirit and the bride say, Come.
Calvinists say, it does not matter if you come or don't come; what matters is whether God chose you or not; and even if you do come, it is possible that the Lord will not receive you.
Jesus said,
Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
We are responsible for where we end up, not God.
Rom 1:20, For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
If I don't have a choice in the matter of whether I believe in Him, and go to heaven, or not, then I have an excuse in that I simply could not make a decision because I had no free will, I couldn't do anything about the fact that I was predestinated to hell. How can I be held responsible for a choice that I was incapable of making? "It was Your decision to put me in hell; I wanted to go to heaven; who wouldn't? I called on the name of the Lord like You said and it turned out I wasn't one of the elect. So it turns out, my excuse is that I didn't have a choice in the matter": and that, impaho, is a valid excuse. However this whole thing is contrary to the scripture that I quoted above.
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That does not answer my question.
"all" in 1 Timothy 2:6 does not refer only to those who were given to Jesus by the Father, this does not refer to "all". "All" means "all"...that is, everyone in the world, Jesus died for. This death on the Cross is only appropriated by those who believe on Him, however.
That is John 6:37, not John 6:44.
He added that to the end because there are certain people who make the contention that "all" does not refer to all men; when it clearly does so.
Technically, John 6:44 does not teach that. It teaches, rather, that no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws them. This means that they may not come to Jesus when He draws them; Him drawing them opens up the possibility for them to come to Him. The other verse in question, John 6:37, speaks of the fact that all that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him; it does not say that those whom the Father does not give to Jesus will not come to Him, so I take issue with the word "only" in your sentence, based on the technical meaning of the verse. Those that the Father gives to Jesus will believe; but there are those who believe, technically according to the verse, whom the Father has not given to Jesus. I encourage the reader to be a Berean (Acts 17:11) and search this out.
iow, The Father giving me to Jesus guarantees my salvation, but the Father drawing me to Jesus does not.
And also, the Father not giving me to Jesus does not mean that I cannot be saved.
Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world; however, this propitiation is only appropriated to the individual through faith. That means, a person lays hold of the mercy offered by believing in what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
Jesus died for you, but if you don't believe in Him it will profit you nothing.
So people will be in hell and this does not contradict the concept that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
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One of my favorite verses; however, it does not substantiate Unconditional Election, neither Limited Atonement, in my view.
For God is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16), therefore He loves each and every one of us.
Some of us respond to His love positively and others don't.
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Even after we believe on Him, we continue to be sinners; even as we continue to believe.
Psa 51:3, For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Luk 18:9, And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10, Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11, The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12, I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13, And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14, I tell you, this man went down to his house justified ratherthan the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
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What a strange argument from someone who should know better. The Bible is crystal clear that Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.
Let's take another verse which cannot possibly be misunderstood but which will be twisted like a pretzel by the Calvinists:
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)
The Calvinist response to this clear Scripture would be: 'Did John the Baptist make a gross mistake by substituting "the world" for "the elect"? My, my, we need to fix that error and reinterpret it properly. John really meant "the elect". And the apostle John did not mean "the world" either when he mentioned it several times in his Gospel. How could these men be so mistaken?'
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
Sorry to disappoint you. Whether you believe it or not, I do know better. It is the misinterpretation of others that is in error reading 1 John 2:2. What this verse is really saying is that in all of the world Jesus is the ONLY Savior in that, He came to seek and to save all that are lost who are scattered / living in all the world.
Now think this out carefully. If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world why does the Bible teach hell is going to be heavily populated? Remember salvation is of God. When a person becomes saved All of his sins have been redeemed by Christ past, present, and future. Now tell me, what sin can he commit that will threaten him with hell according to 1 John 3:9 which reads:
“Whosoever is born of God doth NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
Glory alleluia! I rest my case.
Strange argument , you say? You better re-study your Bible in what God has to say before you venture into the unknown.
To God Be The Glory
Denominations divide the body of Christ and indoctrinate their subjects according to the errors they rally around.
John equates oneness with having the spirit of Antichrist. You are also semi-pelagian which teaches salvation by works.
If you "decide" or "choose" to believe, it isn't faith but works and you are your own savior, falsely assumed.
Jun2u
Gods TRUTH is NOT dependant UPON man.
Gods TRUTH is ALWAYS TRUE, regardless of what a man believes.
Jesus "OFFERED" "A" BODY of Flesh and Blood (that was Prepared BY GOD) being "ACCEPTABLE TO GOD," "FOR";
Forgiveness and Salvation for the ENTIRE World of mankind.
Gods OFFERING is ONE THING.
Mankind "ACCEPTING" Gods OFFERING is ANOTHER THING.
From the VERY BEGINNING of Gods "CREATION" OF MANKIND; GOD "immediately" "MADE/MAKES" "MANKIND" ALIVE" "WitH" "GODS LIFE" "WITHIN" "MAN".
The Living Soul within Every single man, IS the presence of Gods spiritual BREATH within a Soul, within a man.
(LIFE of God, belongs TO GOD)
(ALL souls, belong TO GOD)
And Every single living manALSO has present "WITHIN" him, "his own" LIFE "separate" from Gods (LIFE) Breath...CALLED BLOOD.
ONE man...(a VESSEL)
TWO "LIFE" Sources within the man.
ONE man...(WITHIN the man VESSEL...
IS "OTHER VESSELS".
One VESSEL; A "SOUL"
SOURCE OF "LIFE" "in" the SOUL...Gods breath
One VESSEL; A "HEART"
SOURCE OF "LIFE" "in" the HEART...Mans Blood.
Mans VESSEL....FORMED BODY..."EXPRESSLY" Sentenced TO DIE? YES, no exceptions.
Mans LIFE...BLOOD..."EXPRESSLY"
Sentenced to DIE? YES, no exceptions.
Gods SOULS...."EXPRESSLY" SENTENCED TO DIE? No. "THERE ARE" "EXCEPTIONS".
Gods LIFE..."EXPRESSLY" SENTENCED TO DIE? No. "NEVER" shall Gods LIFE "DIE".
POINT BEING;
Gods Creations have been revealed.
Gods Will has been revealed.
Gods Absolutes and Exceptions have been revealed.
Mankind CAN "FREELY" CHOOSE...
TO....grow in his own LIFE "only"
TO....grow in his own "LIFE" "AND" Gods Life
OF REJECT "EITHER"...
END his own LIFE...
Never Begin, or start, or quit, or Continue in growing in Gods Life..
Every man Who freely chooses to...
Begin, Start growing IN Gods Life;
SUCH man, "IS" gifted WITH "enlightening" FAITH from God.
And Such man WHO Continues "growing IN Gods Life"...Continues Receiving "enlightening" FAITH from God.
And ANY man, WHO, STOPS, DISCONTINUES, "growing In Gods Enlightenment"...STOPS Reseving FAITH from God.
That ^ man becomes CALLED, having "FALLEN FROM FAITH".
That ^ man has exercised his OWN Freewill, TO RECJECT receiving FAITH FROM GOD.
So, thus....MEN having BEEN "receiving" FAITH FROM GOD, "being CALLED" "IN FAITH", absolutely CAN "FALL AWAY FROM FAITH".
A man WHO, freely Elects to Continue IN FAITH; Becomes the Obvious...ENLARGED with Gods GIFT OF FAITH.
The MORE measures of FAITH a man Receives; the MORE a man IS BEING "PREPARED"
TO ..FREELY "make" a Committed Vow to GOD.
The BEAUTY of a "Committed Vow" a man "MAKES" to thee Lord God...."IS"...
The EFFORT of a man TO KEEP that VOW...
IS NOT at all "BY" the mans "EFFORT", and IS "SOLEY ACCOMPLISHED BY" THE POWER OF GOD .
The Beauty of Gods "ACCOMPLISHMENT" IS:
His "Accomplishments" are EVERLASTING!
Gods TRUTH, SHALL prevail.
Gods PROMISES, SHALL prevail.
They are never dependant UPON A MAN.
Man is FOREVER dependant UPON Gods POWER...
God Provides...
Man exercises his own freewill TO Reject or Elect Thee Lord God Almighty.
John 6
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Phil 2
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2 Cor 5
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the FLESH, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
God Bless,
Taken
Gods TRUTH is NOT dependant UPON man.
Gods TRUTH is ALWAYS TRUE, regardless of what a man believes.
Jesus "OFFERED" "A" BODY of Flesh and Blood (that was Prepared BY GOD) being "ACCEPTABLE TO GOD," "FOR";
Forgiveness and Salvation for the ENTIRE World of mankind.
Gods OFFERING is ONE THING.
Mankind "ACCEPTING" Gods OFFERING is ANOTHER THING.
From the VERY BEGINNING of Gods "CREATION" OF MANKIND; GOD "immediately" "MADE/MAKES" "MANKIND" ALIVE" "WitH" "GODS LIFE" "WITHIN" "MAN".
The Living Soul within Every single man, IS the presence of Gods spiritual BREATH within a Soul, within a man.
(LIFE of God, belongs TO GOD)
(ALL souls, belong TO GOD)
And Every single living manALSO has present "WITHIN" him, "his own" LIFE "separate" from Gods (LIFE) Breath...CALLED BLOOD.
ONE man...(a VESSEL)
TWO "LIFE" Sources within the man.
ONE man...(WITHIN the man VESSEL...
IS "OTHER VESSELS".
One VESSEL; A "SOUL"
SOURCE OF "LIFE" "in" the SOUL...Gods breath
One VESSEL; A "HEART"
SOURCE OF "LIFE" "in" the HEART...Mans Blood.
Mans VESSEL....FORMED BODY..."EXPRESSLY" Sentenced TO DIE? YES, no exceptions.
Mans LIFE...BLOOD..."EXPRESSLY"
Sentenced to DIE? YES, no exceptions.
Gods SOULS...."EXPRESSLY" SENTENCED TO DIE? No. "THERE ARE" "EXCEPTIONS".
Gods LIFE..."EXPRESSLY" SENTENCED TO DIE? No. "NEVER" shall Gods LIFE "DIE".
POINT BEING;
Gods Creations have been revealed.
Gods Will has been revealed.
Gods Absolutes and Exceptions have been revealed.
Mankind CAN "FREELY" CHOOSE...
TO....grow in his own LIFE "only"
TO....grow in his own "LIFE" "AND" Gods Life
OF REJECT "EITHER"...
END his own LIFE...
Never Begin, or start, or quit, or Continue in growing in Gods Life..
Every man Who freely chooses to...
Begin, Start growing IN Gods Life;
SUCH man, "IS" gifted WITH "enlightening" FAITH from God.
And Such man WHO Continues "growing IN Gods Life"...Continues Receiving "enlightening" FAITH from God.
And ANY man, WHO, STOPS, DISCONTINUES, "growing In Gods Enlightenment"...STOPS Reseving FAITH from God.
That ^ man becomes CALLED, having "FALLEN FROM FAITH".
That ^ man has exercised his OWN Freewill, TO RECJECT receiving FAITH FROM GOD.
So, thus....MEN having BEEN "receiving" FAITH FROM GOD, "being CALLED" "IN FAITH", absolutely CAN "FALL AWAY FROM FAITH".
A man WHO, freely Elects to Continue IN FAITH; Becomes the Obvious...ENLARGED with Gods GIFT OF FAITH.
The MORE measures of FAITH a man Receives; the MORE a man IS BEING "PREPARED"
TO ..FREELY "make" a Committed Vow to GOD.
The BEAUTY of a "Committed Vow" a man "MAKES" to thee Lord God...."IS"...
The EFFORT of a man TO KEEP that VOW...
IS NOT at all "BY" the mans "EFFORT", and IS "SOLEY ACCOMPLISHED BY" THE POWER OF GOD .
The Beauty of Gods "ACCOMPLISHMENT" IS:
His "Accomplishments" are EVERLASTING!
Gods TRUTH, SHALL prevail.
Gods PROMISES, SHALL prevail.
They are never dependant UPON A MAN.
Man is FOREVER dependant UPON Gods POWER...
God Provides...
Man exercises his own freewill TO Reject or Elect Thee Lord God Almighty.
John 6
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Phil 2
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2 Cor 5
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the FLESH, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
God Bless,
Taken
And yet look at Adam and Eve. They were literally told that they would die if they disobeyed and yet the did it anyways. Sorry, but this is the real 'will' of man; it is in no sense free, but is enslaved to Satan and will do his bidding regardless of the consequences.
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