Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied

[Enoch111]

And regarding you definition of faith as a reaction; the question is a reaction to what?

A reaction to the Gospel, under the power of the Holy Spirit.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel). Rom 10:17.

The purpose of the Gospel -- which is the power of God unto salvation -- is to generate faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption on behalf of the hearer. Christ died for all, and all may be saved if all will obey the Gospel (repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ).

 

[Jun2u]

“For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” (1 Corinthians 3:4) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthians 1:12–13) (KJV 1900)

The above is exactly my sentiments.

Are you sure you got the gist of 1 Corinthians 1:12-13?

 

[Mjh29]

A reaction to the Gospel, under the power of the Holy Spirit.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel). Rom 10:17.

The purpose of the Gospel -- which is the power of God unto salvation -- is to generate faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption on behalf of the hearer. Christ died for all, and all may be saved if all will obey the Gospel (repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ).

The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to generate faith, though I would agree that this is done through the medium of the Scriptures. But ultimately it is the application of the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit that creates true, saving faith.

I do not agree that Christ died for all, because if He did, all would be saved. Christ never failed in anything He put his hand to do, and one of those thing that he set out to accomplish is the redemption of sinners. If Christ truly meant to die for the sins of everyone, then all would be saved. Therefore either Christ's sacrifice was invalid or he did not die for every single person. Before I am made out to be a heretic, let me ask a simple question; On what basis is God obligated to give every man the ability to be saved?

 

[Enoch111]

I do not agree that Christ died for all, because if He did, all would be saved.

This is completely unscriptural since NO ONE is saved automatically. Study the Scriptures. ALL MAY BE SAVED IF ALL WILL REPENT AND BELIEVE.

 

[Mjh29]

This is completely unscriptural since NO ONE is saved automatically. Study the Scriptures. ALL MAY BE SAVED IF ALL WILL REPENT AND BELIEVE.

1.) This does not answer my question

2.) I will provide the verses
- John 6:35-40
- John 10:11, 14-18
- John 10: 24-29

Christ died for his flock, the members of which he knew. He died knowing all for whom he died.

 

[Mjh29]

This is completely unscriptural since NO ONE is saved automatically. Study the Scriptures. ALL MAY BE SAVED IF ALL WILL REPENT AND BELIEVE.

This also leaves the power of salvation in man's hand rather that God's. If Christ's blood is only effective if we make it so, then we have put ourselves on-par with him in terms of contribution to our salvation; Our correct choice becomes every bit as important as His precious blood, and this is obviously an abominable heresy.

 

[marks]

This also leaves the power of salvation in man's hand rather that God's. If Christ's blood is only effective if we make it so, then we have put ourselves on-par with him in terms of contribution to our salvation; Our correct choice becomes every bit as important as His precious blood, and this is obviously an abominable heresy.

But God already made His choice, didn't He? He reconciled the world to Himself. Isn't that what is says in 2 Corinthians 5?

much love!
Mark

 

[Mjh29]

But God already made His choice, didn't He? He reconciled the world to Himself. Isn't that what is says in 2 Corinthians 5?

much love!
Mark

Yes he did. The cosmos. His creation cries out in pain against the sins of man that causes it to suffer and decay and die, and He has promised that one day there will be restoration.

 

[Jun2u]

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel). Rom 10:17.

The purpose of the Gospel -- which is the power of God unto salvation -- is to generate faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption on behalf of the hearer.

The word “faith” is synonymous with the word “believe” / “belief.” “Faith“ is the noun and “believe” is the verb. Therefore, we can render Romans 10:17 as follows, “Belief” cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Christ died for all, and all may be saved if all will obey the Gospel (repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ).

CHRIST DID NOT DIE FOR ALL!!! Matthew 1:21

John 6:44 and John 6:37 to the rescue and shines once again.

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

Yes he did. The cosmos. His creation cries out in pain against the sins of man that causes it to suffer and decay and die, and He has promised that one day there will be restoration.

I'm sorry, I'm referring to God's statement that He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. (2 Cor 5) What does that mean to you?

I just read your post again . . . are you thinking this means the planet?

Much love!
Mark

 

[Mjh29]

I'm sorry, I'm referring to God's statement that He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. (2 Cor 5) What does that mean to you?

Much love!
Mark

That he reconciled his creation to himself; the whole of the cosmos is reconciled and will one day be set free from the curse man has put upon it.

 

[marks]

That he reconciled his creation to himself; the whole of the cosmos is reconciled and will one day be set free from the curse man has put upon it.

OK. You are equating the Koine Greek kosmos with our English Cosmos.

That helps me understand.

Of course, man didn't curse creation, right?

I'm thinking this isn't about a creation that will one day disappear, not to be found. Which will be replaced. I'm thinking God's interest is in man.

I believe that God cursed creation to futility knowing that this curse would drive us back to Him. It's not about the rocks and the plants and turtles, it's about man. In my view.

Much love!
mark

 

[Mjh29]

OK. You are equating the Koine Greek kosmos with our English Cosmos.

That helps me understand.

Of course, man didn't curse creation, right?

I'm thinking this isn't about a creation that will one day disappear, not to be found. Which will be replaced. I'm thinking God's interest is in man.

I believe that God cursed creation to futility knowing that this curse would drive us back to Him. It's not about the rocks and the plants and turtles, it's about man. In my view.

Much love!
mark

I do not believe that God cursed creation. Man's sin cursed creation. Creation experiences death, and that death came into existence because of man's sin. Scripture is not about man [in the sense that he is the central element of them] . Salvation is not about man. As humans, we all have a tendency to make the Scriptures all about us; when in reality it is the story of the amazing work and love and justice of God. It is about how his creation, which was very good, now is tainted by the sins of man. Why are there weeds, and why do things shrivel up and die, and why do animals now attack and eat on another? As we are told in Genesis, it is because of man's sin that Creation suffers, and through Christ's atonement for sin, Creation will one day be freed from this curse.

 

[justbyfaith]

And regarding you definition of faith as a reaction; the question is a reaction to what?

To the preaching of the gospel, of course.

If we do not make a choice when faced with the gospel of Jesus Christ, then that means that God makes the choice for us.

So it is God's choice that some people go to hell after hearing the "good news" that He died for them on the Cross. Some people are made by God to choose against Him when they hear the preaching.

I do not believe that God is such a monstrous God as what is portrayed by such a doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

Our correct choice becomes every bit as important as His precious blood, and this is obviously an abominable heresy.

If our choice is not important, how does a person become born again, from a human perspective? How or when is the blood applied?

CHRIST DID NOT DIE FOR ALL!!! Matthew 1:21

He did.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
.
.
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Mat 1:21, And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

How does this substantiate your pov?

 

[justbyfaith]

We do know, and the answer is no, no the clay does not make the choice to be hardened while the butter chooses to melt.

This may be true of literal clay and butter; however human hearts, represented by the clay and butter, have the capacity to make a decision.

 

[Waiting on him]

Having faith in Jesus is mutually exclusive to works according to

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is very basic and I'm surprised that you don't know it.

Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

I do not believe that God cursed creation. Man's sin cursed creation. Creation experiences death, and that death came into existence because of man's sin. Scripture is not about man [in the sense that he is the central element of them] . Salvation is not about man. As humans, we all have a tendency to make the Scriptures all about us; when in reality it is the story of the amazing work and love and justice of God. It is about how his creation, which was very good, now is tainted by the sins of man. Why are there weeds, and why do things shrivel up and die, and why do animals now attack and eat on another? As we are told in Genesis, it is because of man's sin that Creation suffers, and through Christ's atonement for sin, Creation will one day be freed from this curse.

Hi Mjh29,

So then you see the ground cursed because of Adam, and God subjecting creation to futility as two different things, is that correct?

I see Scripture as a love story in which God sets out to have a family to love, and a family is what He will have! And it is also His instrument (in part) to bring that about.

He sends forth His word . . . why?

much love!
Mark

 

[Mjh29]

Hi Mjh29,

So then you see the ground cursed because of Adam, and God subjecting creation to futility as two different things, is that correct?

I see Scripture as a love story in which God sets out to have a family to love, and a family is what He will have! And it is also His instrument (in part) to bring that about.

He sends forth His word . . . why?

much love!
Mark

Hi!

To start, I would like to say that I may have made my meaning a bit unclear, and for that I apologize. I do believe that God cursed the earth, and see the above mentioned curses upon the land as a part of the same curse. However, I believe that the cause of this curse is man's sin. The earth was originally perfect in God's eyes, and without death or decay. Man's sin entered into the world [cosmos] and death by sin. This death includes the slow and steady dying of our universe as a whole.

I agree that Scripture is a story full of the rich love of God, but it is equally the story of His justice. While it is true that God is overjoyed at His family that is the church of Christ, this is not why he saves sinners, and is not the overarching message of the Bible. The message is one of His glory, more specifically, that His glory is the end goal of all things, and that everything that has ever happened and that ever will happen does so because it brings Him ultimate glory.

I agree completely that the Scriptures are the chief instrument which God uses to bring about conversion; the Spirit's application of the Word of God is the only way one can hope to receive true, genuine faith. I believe He sends forth His Word to conquer the hearts of men, and to bring them to a saving knowledge of and faith in Him.

 

[Mjh29]

This may be true of literal clay and butter; however human hearts, represented by the clay and butter, have the capacity to make a decision.

This makes no sense. Why are you using clay and butter as your example then? Human hearts cannot change what they are; deprived, sin-filled hearts that cannot please God. We as fallen men cannot please God. It is impossible. Let me give you an example that actually works. I have always loved cherry pie. It has been my favorite kind of pie for as long as I can remember, and it always makes me feel good eating it. Apple pie? Not a big fan. Now, let's say that these 2 pies are put in front of me, and I am free to chose between the 2 as I wish. Which pie will I pick? Well, obviously the cherry! I love cherry, and don't like apple; it is a no brainer! Now, do the same thing again. Will my choice be any different just because you did the test again? No, of course not! Naturally, I am inclined to choose the cherry because it is what I really love. This is the problem with mankind, and furthermore the problem with you 'my choice' logic. The cherry pie represents sin and the apple represents Christ. No matter how many times man is given the choice, by nature we are inclined to choose incorrectly! This is why faith is a gift of the Spirit, not an act of man... man when left to his own devices cannot choose correctly because he had zero inclination to do so, and every inclination to do the contrary.