Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied

[justbyfaith]

John equates oneness with having the spirit of Antichrist. You are also semi-pelagian which teaches salvation by works.

The Book of Acts (2:38-39) equates Oneness with having the Holy Ghost; and you have also misinterpreted that verse in 1 John. If I do what it takes to receive a piece of bread, a fish, or an egg, God is not going to give me a stone, a serpent, or a scorpion (Luke 11:9-13).

And I certainly do not believe in salvation by works; that is simply what you believe I teach because you think that making a choice for the Lord is a work. It is not. It is merely a response to the salvation message. If I were the devil, I would identify sound doctrine and then think of a horrible-sounding label to attach to it. So, instead of labeling my doctrine as "semi-pelagian" why don't you say more clearly what my doctrine is that you are in contention with and then give the biblical reasons why you think it is false. That would be the loving, Christian thing to do. Do you think I want to believe in lies? if you have any love for me at all, and believe that I am deceived, then show from scripture how it is that you think that I am mistaken; if you have any Christian love for me at all.

To label me as a heretic without defining any false doctrine on my part is simply not loving impaho.

Even when I deal with the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, I do not go up to them saying, "you are heretics". No; I rather go to them with scripture that proves the Deity of Christ. If I insulted them it would very much close the door to winning them to the truth.

If you "decide" or "choose" to believe, it isn't faith but works and you are your own savior, falsely assumed.

If we do not choose to believe, then God makes that choice for us.

And that means that God is some kind of Monster who puts people in hell and gives them no option to escape that judgment. This is not the gospel, and neither is it the God of the Bible.

The God I serve has a willing people who have made the choice to believe in and serve Him. He does not create automatons, some to do evil and others to do good just so that He can have some entertainment. He is love.

In the very beginning in Genesis, God created Adam and Eve and placed a tree in the midst of the garden and said, "Do not eat of that tree, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

You would try to tell me that Adam and Eve didn't have a choice in the matter of whether they would eat of the tree or not. However, they chose not to eat of it for a period of time before Eve actually took of that fruit; at which time she chose to rebel against the Lord.

There is a certain blindness involved in the hearts and minds of some of you who are so steeped in the Calvinist theology that would tell you that Adam and Eve didn't have a choice. I am going to pray that the Lord opens your eyes, if only for a moment, so that you can make a choice to either believe or not believe what He shows you concerning this. If you choose not to believe it after seeing it with your eyes, then that is certainly a choice that some of you may make.

A major part of what salvation is all about is our surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ; and this Calvinistic theology goes against that; probably the reason why some of you are so adamant in keeping it as a theology.

If we cannot make a choice in the matter, then we do not have to surrender to Him. I believe that this is the crux of the issue.

@Dave L, my prayer for you is the same as was Paul's for Alexander the coppersmith:

2Ti 4:14, Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15, Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

 

[Dave L]

The Book of Acts (2:38-39) equates Oneness with having the Holy Ghost; and you have also misinterpreted that verse in 1 John. If I do what it takes to receive a piece of bread, a fish, or an egg, God is not going to give me a stone, a serpent, or a scorpion (Luke 11:9-13).

And I certainly do not believe in salvation by works; that is simply what you believe I teach because you think that making a choice for the Lord is a work. It is not. It is merely a response to the salvation message. If I were the devil, I would identify sound doctrine and then think of a horrible-sounding label to attach to it. So, instead of labeling my doctrine as "semi-pelagian" why don't you say more clearly what my doctrine is that you are in contention with and then give the biblical reasons why you think it is false. That would be the loving, Christian thing to do. Do you think I want to believe in lies? if you have any love for me at all, and believe that I am deceived, then show from scripture how it is that you think that I am mistaken; if you have any Christian love for me at all.

To label me as a heretic without defining any false doctrine on my part is simply not loving impaho.

Even when I deal with the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, I do not go up to them saying, "you are heretics". No; I rather go to them with scripture that proves the Deity of Christ. if I insulted them it would very much close the door to winning them to the truth.



If we do not choose to believe, then God makes that choice for us.

And that means that God is some kind of Monster who puts people in hell and gives them no option to escape that judgment. This is not the gospel, and neither is it the God of the Bible.

The God I serve has a willing people who have made the choice to believe in and serve Him. He does not create automatons, some to do evil and others to do good just so that He can have some entertainment. He is love.

In the very beginning in Genesis, God created Adam and Eve and placed a tree in the midst of the garden and said, "Do not eat of that tree, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

You would try to tell me that Adam and Eve didn't have a choice in the matter of whether they would eat of the tree or not. However, they chose not to eat of it for a period of time before Eve actually took of that fruit; at which time she chose to rebel against the Lord.

There is a certain blindness involved in the hearts and minds of some of you who are so steeped in the Calvinist theology that would tell you that Adam and Eve didn't have a choice. I am going to pray that the Lord opens your eyes, if only for a moment, so that you can make a choice to either believe or not believe what He shows you concerning this. If you choose not to believe it after seeing it with your eyes, then that is certainly a choice that some of you may make.

A major part of what salvation is all about is our surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ; and this Calvinistic theology goes against that; probably the reason why some of you are so adamant in keeping it as a theology.

If we cannot make a choice in the matter, then we do not have to surrender to Him. I believe that this is the crux of the issue.

@Dave L, my prayer for you is the same as was Paul's for Alexander the coppersmith:

2Ti 4:14, Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15, Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

You are off on several critical doctrines. For starters; 1) you deny the historic position on the trinity. 2) you are semi-pelagian which means you believe in salvation by works. Either of these are contrary to historic Christianity.

 

[justbyfaith]

1) you deny the historic position on the trinity. 2) you are semi-pelagian which means you believe in salvation by works.

I neither deny the Trinity, nor am I semi-pelagian (Ephesians 2:8-9 is a crux and a foundation in my theology).

The LORD rebuke you, satan.

(I am not addressing you, @Dave L, but rather the spirit that is behind your statements).

The devil is the accuser of the brethren and his name means "slanderer".

 

[Mjh29]

I neither deny the Trinity, nor am I semi-pelagian (Ephesians 2:8-9 is a crux and a foundation in my theology).

The LORD rebuke you, satan.

(I am not addressing you, @Dave L, but rather the spirit that is behind your statements).

The devil is the accuser of the brethren and his name means "slanderer".

Pelagianism Briefly Defined:

"According to Pelagius, every infant comes into the world in the same condition as Adam was before the Fall. His leading principle was that man's will is absolutely free. Hence, everyone has the power, withing himself, to believe the Gospel, as well as to keep the law of God perfectly"
~ Taken from The 5 Points of Calvinism by Steele, Thomas and Quinn

I personally have gathered from your previous statements that you seem to believe the bold type.

 

[Dave L]

I neither deny the Trinity, nor am I semi-pelagian (Ephesians 2:8-9 is a crux and a foundation in my theology).

The LORD rebuke you, satan.

(I am not addressing you, @Dave L, but rather the spirit that is behind your statements).

The devil is the accuser of the brethren and his name means "slanderer".

You deny the biblical/historical trinity. Naming your own false doctrine after it. You believe in salvation by works among other errors when you think you choose whether you are to be saved or not according to obedience (works).

 

[justbyfaith]

Pelagianism Briefly Defined:

"According to Pelagius, every infant comes into the world in the same condition as Adam was before the Fall. His leading principle was that man's will is absolutely free. Hence, everyone has the power, withing himself, to believe the Gospel, as well as to keep the law of God perfectly"
~ Taken from The 5 Points of Calvinism by Steele, Thomas and Quinn

I personally have gathered from your previous statements that you seem to believe the bold type.

No; for I believe that it is only the drawing of the Father that enables a man to believe in Christ.

Being drawn by the Father does not guarantee salvation; it enables a man to make the decision to receive Christ.

Apart from the Father's drawing of a person to Christ, they are completely unable to make the decision for Him (while their decision against Him will continue unabated).

The Father draws everyone to Christ at specific moments in their life; at which time they are called upon to make a choice, and at which time God helps the person to make that choice:

2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

This timing is always the time of the preaching; it is always in the now of hearing, when the gospel message is being brought to bear on the person's heart.

 

[Mjh29]

No; for I believe that it is only the drawing of the Father that enables a man to believe in Christ.

Being drawn by the Father does not guarantee salvation; it enables a man to make the decision to receive Christ.

Apart from the Father's drawing of a person to Christ, they are completely unable to make the decision for Him (while their decision against Him will continue unabated).

The Father draws everyone to Christ at specific moments in their life; at which time they are called upon to make a choice, and at which time God helps the person to make that choice:

2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

This timing is always the time of the preaching; it is always in the now of hearing, when the gospel message is being brought to bear on the person's heart.

Precisely. What you have just described is what is call Semi-Pelagianism. This is what Dave was saying and I am affirming is indeed heresy.

So what you are saying is that Christ really didn't come to "Seek and save that which was lost", but rather came to "Seek and make savable", and that His blood will only ever be effective if we choose to make it so.

So then you believe that is is our choice of the blood that saves us, not the grace of God.

So you believe in works righteousness?

 

[justbyfaith]

You deny the biblical/historical trinity. Naming your own false doctrine after it. You believe in salvation by works among other errors when you think you choose whether you are to be saved or not according to obedience (works).

You are going to insist on this...

I pray that the Holy Ghost convicts you over your attacks on me.

I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct individuals within the Trinity; and you are jealous of me because I understand the nuances of how this works and you don't.

I believe that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

I really do pray that the Lord will receive you as a son according to Hebrews 12:6, because I am rather angry with you. You have purposefully been attempting to provoke me for quite some time now and my patience is beginning to wear thin; so now I pray the chastening and scourging of the Lord upon your life according to that verse (in the love of the Lord, of course).

That last thing caused me to break forth in angry tongues (see Ezekiel 3:14); and this indicates to me that the Holy Spirit Himself within me was angry with your reaction to what I am saying.

I do not want to be you in coming days; if the Lord does not chasten you with scourging, your destination is hell.

 

[Dave L]

You are going to insist on this...

I pray that the Holy Ghost convicts you over your attacks on me.

I believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct individuals within the Trinity; and you are jealous of me because I understand the nuances of how this works and you don't.

I believe that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

I really do pray that the Lord will receive you as a son according to Hebrews 12:6, because I am rather angry with you. You have purposefully been attempting to provoke me for quite some time now and my patience is beginning to wear thin; so now I pray the chastening and scourging of the Lord upon your life according to that verse (in the love of the Lord, of course).

That last thing caused me to break forth in angry tongues (see Ezekiel 3:14); and this indicates to me that the Holy Spirit Himself within me was angry with your reaction to what I am saying.

I do not want to be you in coming days; if the Lord does not chasten you with scourging, your destination is hell.

We can look at the same scriptures and come up with several different interpretations. So it is not about you presenting scripture to support your view. It's about knowing what scripture means by what it says. And you have a twisted interpretation on several major doctrines. One of which is a damnable heresy - oneness.

 

[justbyfaith]

Precisely. What you have just described is what is call Semi-Pelagianism. This is what Dave was saying and I am affirming is indeed heresy.

So what you are saying is that Christ really didn't come to "Seek and save that which was lost", but rather came to "Seek and make savable", and that His blood will only ever be effective if we choose to make it so.

So then you believe that is is our choice of the blood that saves us, not the grace of God.

So you believe in works righteousness?

It is heresy according to Calvinistic theology...not according to the Bible.

If you think that it is heresy according to the Bible, then bring up your verses, and let us discuss this rationally.

John 1:12 teaches us that we must receive Him if we are going to obtain the power to become the sons of God.

He seeks those which are lost, and will save them if they are willing to be saved.

Some who are faced with the gospel of salvation choose to reject Christ when He calls, for that they love their sin more than the concept of eternal life and choose not to believe in it in order that they might keep their sin. Did they not make a choice to reject Him? Therefore, if someone hearing the gospel of salvation receives Him, was that not also a choice?

Human responsibility is a reality, whether you will receive it or not, even if you try to apply some ugly label to the truth of it.

 

[justbyfaith]

We can look at the same scriptures and come up with several different interpretations. So it is not about you presenting scripture to support your view. It's about knowing what scripture means by what it says. And you have a twisted interpretation on several major doctrines. One of which is a damnable heresy - oneness.

By all means tell me...What is damnable about it? How does it bring condemnation?

 

[Dave L]

By all means tell me...What is damnable about it?

You reject the trinitarian God of the bible and embrace the Islamic and Judaic false god.

 

[Mjh29]

He seeks those which are lost, and will save them if they are willing to be saved.

The verse says seek and save, not make savable. You can deny it and hate it all you want, but I'm sorry there is no 2 ways around it; Christ will seek and actually save, not make savable.

 

[justbyfaith]

You reject the trinitarian God of the bible and embrace the Islamic and Judaic false god.

I worship the God of the Bible (and also believe in the true Trinity), and you are persecuting me for doing so, because you are a Tritheist (and not Trinitarian at all).

Even as it is written,

Gal 4:29, But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I'll ask you again: how does my emphasis on the Oneness of the Lord bring condemnation?

 

[justbyfaith]

The verse says seek and save, not make savable. You can deny it and hate it all you want, but I'm sorry there is no 2 ways around it; Christ will seek and actually save, not make savable.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

By all means tell me how it is that you think that receiving Christ isn't a choice that we make...I'm all ears.

 

[justbyfaith]

And yet look at Adam and Eve. They were literally told that they would die if they disobeyed and yet the did it anyways. Sorry, but this is the real 'will' of man; it is in no sense free, but is enslaved to Satan and will do his bidding regardless of the consequences.

See post #161, which I wrote before seeing this post.

 

[Mjh29]

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

By all means tell me how it is that you think that receiving Christ isn't a choice that we make...I'm all ears.

We do receive Christ, only after He receives us. Only after he changes our hearts and wills can we even see and accept Him.

Verses about Man's Depravity
~ Gen. 6:5
~ Gen. 8:21
~ Jer. 17:9
~ Mark 7:21-23

Verses about our Bondage to Sin
~ Jhn. 8:44
~ Jhn 8:34
~ Titus 3:3

Verses about our inability to Change
~ Job 14:4
~ Jer. 13:23
~ Matt. 7:16-18

By all means, explain to me how the sinners described all throughout the Scriptures could ever receive Christ and make the 'correct choice', apart from God changing out wills and actually seeking and doing the saving. I'm all ears.

 

[justbyfaith]

I also want to tell you something; when I discuss doctrine, my mind does not think about what I believe so that I then try to think of verses that support my belief.

Rather, the word is nigh me, in my mouth and in my heart.

And this means that when I come across false doctrine, the scripture comes to mind that refutes that doctrine.

1Jo 2:20, But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21, I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[Dave L]

I worship the God of the Bible (and also believe in the true Trinity), and you are persecuting me for doing so, because you are a Tritheist (and not Trinitarian at all).

Even as it is written,

Gal 4:29, But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I'll ask you again: how does my emphasis on the Oneness of the Lord bring condemnation?

You worship a one person god you call Jesus. Islam calls the same one person god Allah. The Jews call the same one person god YAHWEH. But Christianity is the only religion that worships God in trinity. You want to drag Christ's name away from the Church, call them liars, and say the truth was unknown until the Pentecostals kicked you and your bunch out of their group as heretics in the 1940s.

 

[Dave L]

I also want to tell you something; when I discuss doctrine, my mind does not think about what I believe so that I then try to think of verses that support my belief.

Rather, the word is nigh me, in my mouth and in my heart.

And this means that when I come across false doctrine, the scripture comes to mind that refutes that doctrine.

1Jo 2:20, But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21, I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

You do not understand enough scripture to recognize Satan when he bites you.