Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied

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justbyfaith

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Yes! And who allows us to hear? Who opens our ears to the truth? The Holy Spirit. The Spirit changes our wills and makes us willing to hear the knock, and makes us willing to sit and eat with Christ. The faith we receive is given to us by the spirit by grace, and thus opens our eyes to the knock of Christ.
We are still responsible to open the door.

There was a famous picture of Christ standing outside of a house and knocking on the door. Someone told the artist, "You made a mistake! there is no knob on the outside of the door!" The artist responded, "This is because only we can open the door from the inside."

Also, requiring the Holy Spirit to be in us before we can truly be saved means that Christ is already inside the house. How then is He on the outside knocking?
 

justbyfaith

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If you believe in the trinity doctrine as stated in the early or later Christian creeds, say so.
I have said it a million times already and you didn't believe me. I am not going to give you the satisfaction of saying so again.

See John 10:24-25. Same principle, as Jesus is my example.
 
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Dave L

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I have said it a million times already and you didn't believe me. I am not going to give you the satisfaction of saying so again.

See John 10:24-25. Same principle, as Jesus is my example.
Quote one trinitarian creed and say you agree with it to prove you are not lying.
 

Mjh29

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We are still responsible to open the door.

There was a famous picture of Christ standing outside of a house and knocking on the door. Someone told the artist, "You made a mistake! there is no knob on the outside of the door!" The artist responded, "This is because only we can open the door from the inside."

Not to be rude or brash, but I don't really care about a painting or the one who painted it. For starters, I do not think we should have pictures of Christ to begin with, no graven images and all, but this man was speaking falsehood. If you want a real picture, it should be of Christ kicking down the door and us lying on the floor dead, because that is what we are; dead in sins. I take it that since you agree with this painter, you believe that is is up to us alone to open the door, which means that our opening of the door is what saves us.

So you believe in works righteousness?
 
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justbyfaith

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Not to be rude or brash, but I don't really care about a painting or the one who painted it. For starters, I do not think we should have pictures of Christ to begin with, no graven images and all, but this man was speaking falsehood. If you want a real picture, it should be of Christ kicking down the door and us lying on the floor dead, because that is what we are; dead in sins. I take it that since you agree with this painter, you believe that is is up to us alone to open the door, which means that our opening of the door is what saves us.

So you believe in works righteousness?
edited #201.
 

justbyfaith

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Quote one trinitarian creed and say you agree with it to prove you are not lying.
I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of doing that; not to mention you would just accuse me of lying even more. I am on to you, @Dave L.

Jhn 10:24, Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jhn 10:25, Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.


Same principle. Christ is my example.
 
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Dave L

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I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of doing that; not to mention you would just accuse me of lying even more. I am on to you, @Dave L.

Jhn 10:24, Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jhn 10:25, Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.


Same principle. Christ is my example.
Are you lying? Have something to hide?
 

justbyfaith

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see response #204

So you believe in works righteousness?

We are still responsible to open the door.

There was a famous picture of Christ standing outside of a house and knocking on the door. Someone told the artist, "You made a mistake! there is no knob on the outside of the door!" The artist responded, "This is because only we can open the door from the inside."

Also, requiring the Holy Spirit to be in us before we can truly be saved means that Christ is already inside the house. How then is He on the outside knocking?
 

justbyfaith

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Are you lying? Have something to hide?
Nope. Following Christ's example.

You are calling me a liar, I am not going to give you the satisfaction of defending myself against that accusation; such a defense would be based in pride.
 

Mjh29

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Yep. I did see it.... doesn't make what you are saying any more true. And this also doesn't answer the question I have asked over a dozen times and never once had a legitimate answer to:

You believe in works righteousness?
 
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Dave L

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Nope. Following Christ's example.

You are calling me a liar, I am not going to give you the satisfaction of defending myself against that accusation; such a defense would be based in pride.
I'm only pointing out you will not stand by your claims. And this raises questions about the truthfulness of them.
 

Mjh29

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I believe wholeheartedly in what the Bible says in Ephesians 2:9-9, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6.
So how can you say that you must do the work of choosing to believe?
 
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justbyfaith

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I'm only pointing out you will not stand by your claims. And this raises questions about the truthfulness of them.
Why don't you go and retrieve the creeds one by one and post them here, and I will go through them line-by-line saying what I agree with about them and if I disagree with anything about them and why.

However, what I believe has been clearly stated in the first four posts of another thread. I will give the link to that shortly. I think that this will save us the time and effort of expounding on the creeds; just compare them to my biblical teaching in the link.

link:

Trinity vs. Tritheism
 

justbyfaith

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So how can you say that you must do the work of choosing to believe?
I don't believe that it is a work.

I already showed you my reason for believing that in Ephesians 2:8-9. Salvation by faith is simply not of works. You are sadly mistaken.
 
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Dave L

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Why don't you go and retrieve the creeds one by one and post them here, and I will go through them line-by-line saying what I agree with about them and if I disagree with anything about them and why.
Here's one of my favorites;

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION (One of many statements on the Trinity in scripture)

CHAPTER III

Of God, His Unity and Trinity

GOD IS ONE. We believe and teach that God is one in essence or nature, subsisting in himself, all sufficient in himself, invisible, incorporeal, immense, eternal, Creator of all things both visible and invisible, the greatest good, living, quickening and preserving all things, omnipotent and supremely wise, kind and merciful, just and true. Truly we detest many gods because it is expressly written: “The Lord your God is one Lord” (Deut.6:4). “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:2-3). “I am the Lord, and there is no other god besides me. Am I not the Lord, and there is no other God beside me? A righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me” (Isa. 45:5, 21). “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness” (Ex. 34:6).

GOD IS THREE. Notwithstanding we believe and teach that the same immense, one and indivisible God is in person inseparably and without confusion distinguished as Father, Son and Holy Spirit so, as the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten by an ineffable generation, and the holy Spirit truly proceeds from them both, and the same from eternity and is to be worshipped with both.

Thus there are not three gods, but three persons, cosubstantial, coeternal, and coequal; distinct with respect to hypostases, and with respect to order, the one preceding the other yet without any inequality. For according to the nature or essence they are so joined together that they are one God, and the divine nature is common to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

For Scripture has delivered to us a manifest distinction of persons, the angel saying, among other things, to the Blessed Virgin, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

And also in the baptism of Christ a voice is heard from heaven concerning Christ, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (Mat. 3:17). The Holy Spirit also appeared in the form of a dove (John 1:32).

And when the Lord himself commanded the apostles to baptize, he commanded them to baptize “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19).

Elsewhere in the Gospel he said: “The Father will send the Holy Spirit in my name” (John 14:26), and again he said: “When the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me,” etc. (John 15:26).

In short, we receive the Apostles’ Creed because it delivers to us the true faith.

HERESIES. Therefore we condemn the Jews and Mohammedans, and all those who blaspheme that sacred and adorable Trinity. We also condemn all heresies and heretics who teach that the Son and Holy Spirit are God in name only, and also that there is something created and subservient, or subordinate to another in the Trinity, and that there is something unequal in it, a greater or a less, something corporeal or corporeally conceived, something different with respect to character or will, something mixed or solitary, as if the Son and Holy Spirit were the affections and properties of one God the Father, as the Monarchians, Novatians, Praxeas, Patripassians, Sabellius, Paul of Samosata, Aetius, Macedonius, Anthropomorphites, Arius, and such like, have thought.



Various authors. THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION Trinity.
 
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Mjh29

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I don't believe that it is a work.

I already showed you my reason for believing that in Ephesians 2:8-9. Salvation by faith is simply not of works. You are sadly mistaken.

work
noun

  • 1.activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result
So explain to me how choosing to have faith does not fit the criteria of a work?
 
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justbyfaith

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Therefore we condemn the Jews and Mohammedans,

I would not go so far as to say that.

Rom 11:26, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Luk 6:37, Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


God may indeed condemn them but it is not my position to judge them; although I may at some point declare what I believe to be the Lord's judgment based on the holy scriptures.

Thus there are not three gods, but three persons,

Technically, I do see distinct persons within the Trinity, but would contend that they are also the same Person.

You can gain more understanding on this if you go here: Trinity vs. Tritheism

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


For God is a Person. On many occasions He refers to Himself as "I" and apostles and prophets refer to Him as "Him". not as "Us" or "Them".

Other than that I am in full agreement with this creed.
 
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justbyfaith

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work
noun

  • 1.activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result
So explain to me how choosing to have faith does not fit the criteria of a work?

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Are you going to go by a faulty dictionary definition or are you going to go by the Bible?

Also, faith is a response that does not really normally require mental or physical effort. It is simply how you respond to the preaching of God's word. We don't "muster up faith". We either believe in Him or we don't.

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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