Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied

[Mjh29]

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Are you going to go by a faulty dictionary definition or are you going to go by the Bible?

Also, faith is a response that does not really normally require mental or physical effort. It is simply how you respond to the preaching of God's word. We don't "muster up faith". We either believe in Him or we don't.

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

What exactly is faulty about the definition, and how does it contradict the Scriptures. It contradicts your view of the Scriptures, but not mine. This shows a problem with your view, not of the definition nor the Scriptures. You keep quoting a verse that directly contradicts what you are saying, as though it proves your point. Read the verse! Understand that it is NOT of work, NOT of choice, but that Christ has chosen you!

 

[marks]

Hi!

To start, I would like to say that I may have made my meaning a bit unclear, and for that I apologize. I do believe that God cursed the earth, and see the above mentioned curses upon the land as a part of the same curse. However, I believe that the cause of this curse is man's sin. The earth was originally perfect in God's eyes, and without death or decay. Man's sin entered into the world [cosmos] and death by sin. This death includes the slow and steady dying of our universe as a whole.

Hi Mjh29,

No apologies needed! Written forum posts - what a potential for disaster! LOL!

I think of this a little differently, that death was the natural consequence of breaking fellowship with God through sin. And all men die, because all men sin.

Do you have a Scripture in mind about death of the universe being included in the death of man brought as the natural consequence of sin?

The way I read Romans 8, it seems to me that God was the One who subjected creation to futility, meanwhile, that God had informed Adam that on the day he ate that fruit, that he would die. Is there a verse I can look at for clarification?

I agree that Scripture is a story full of the rich love of God, but it is equally the story of His justice. While it is true that God is overjoyed at His family that is the church of Christ, this is not why he saves sinners, and is not the overarching message of the Bible. The message is one of His glory, more specifically, that His glory is the end goal of all things, and that everything that has ever happened and that ever will happen does so because it brings Him ultimate glory.

I'm thinking of these passages:

Revelation 4:10-11
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Romans 8:28-29
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I'm reading this as that God created us because it pleased Him to do so, and that the goal is that Jesus would have many brothers.

So it seems to me that God made us because He wants a family, something many of us can relate to.

I agree completely that the Scriptures are the chief instrument which God uses to bring about conversion; the Spirit's application of the Word of God is the only way one can hope to receive true, genuine faith. I believe He sends forth His Word to conquer the hearts of men, and to bring them to a saving knowledge of and faith in Him.

In which we will remain solidly in agreement!

Much love!
Mark

 

[justbyfaith]

What exactly is faulty about the definition, and how does it contradict the Scriptures. It contradicts your view of the Scriptures, but not mine. This shows a problem with your view, not of the definition nor the Scriptures. You keep quoting a verse that directly contradicts what you are saying, as though it proves your point. Read the verse! Understand that it is NOT of work, NOT of choice, but that Christ has chosen you!

Actually, if you look at the latter part of the post in question (Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied), the definition can be valid and my pov also valid.

 

[Mjh29]

Hi Mjh29,

No apologies needed! Written forum posts - what a potential for disaster! LOL!

I think of this a little differently, that death was the natural consequence of breaking fellowship with God through sin. And all men die, because all men sin.

Do you have a Scripture in mind about death of the universe being included in the death of man brought as the natural consequence of sin?

The way I read Romans 8, it seems to me that God was the One who subjected creation to futility, meanwhile, that God had informed Adam that on the day he ate that fruit, that he would die. Is there a verse I can look at for clarification?



I'm thinking of these passages:

Revelation 4:10-11
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Romans 8:28-29
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I'm reading this as that God created us because it pleased Him to do so, and that the goal is that Jesus would have many brothers.

So it seems to me that God made us because He wants a family, something many of us can relate to.



In which we will remain solidly in agreement!

Much love!
Mark

Romans 8:19-22
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

This verse comes to mind, showing that it was brought into bondage by the sins of man, and will one day be freed from its agony by Christ

 

[justbyfaith]

What exactly is faulty about the definition, and how does it contradict the Scriptures.

A point that I would make is that the choice that we make of believing in Jesus is not a work, because of Ephesians 2:8-9; which teaches us (among other things) that faith is not of works.

 

[Mjh29]

Actually, if you look at the latter part of the post in question (Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied), the definition can be valid and my pov also valid.

ok, so please explain how faith does not fit the criteria of a work? If both the definition and your pov can both be valid?

 

[Jun2u]

There is a certain blindness involved in the hearts and minds of some of you who are so steeped in the Calvinist theology that would tell you that Adam and Eve didn't have a choice

As far as concerning and being the progenitors of the human race, Adam and Eve did have free wills but lost it when they sinned. Just as they lost the spirit that were given to them so that they may live eternally, but became subject to physical and spiritual death as well. Hence, the rest of humanity DO NOT POSSESS FREE WILLS!!! Because they are dead and have no life in them.

If we cannot make a choice in the matter, then we do not have to surrender to Him. I believe that this is the crux of the issue.

This statement of course is false and it contradicts Romans 3:10-11.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Mjh29]

As far as concerning and being the progenitors of the human race, Adam and Eve did have free wills but lost it when they sinned. Just as they lost the spirit that were given to them so that they may live eternally, but became subject to physical and spiritual death as well. Hence, the rest of humanity DO NOT POSSESS FREE WILLS!!! Because they are dead and have no life in them.



This statement of course is false and it contradicts Romans 3:10-11.

To God Be The Glory

Amen! Well stated!

 

[Dave L]

I would not go so far as to say that.

Rom 11:26, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Luk 6:37, Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

God may indeed condemn them but it is not my position to judge them; although I may at some point declare what I believe to be the Lord's judgment based on the holy scriptures.



Technically, I do see distinct persons within the Trinity, but would contend that they are also the same Person.

You can gain more understanding on this if you go here: Trinity vs. Tritheism

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

For God is a Person. On many occasions He refers to Himself as "I" and apostles and prophets refer to Him as "Him". not as "Us" or "Them".

Other than that I am in full agreement with this creed.

So you are a heretic by historic Christian and biblical definitions.

 

[marks]

Romans 8:19-22
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

This verse comes to mind, showing that it was brought into bondage by the sins of man, and will one day be freed from its agony by Christ

So then the one subjecting creation to futility in hope of it's subsequent liberation was man?

Am I understanding you correctly?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

Free will is totally overrated, in my opinion. Adam had free will. Jesus had free will. Otherwise, we were slaves of sin unto death. Now we are slaves of righteousness. So where is free will?

(trick question)

Much love!
Mark

 

[Mjh29]

So then the one subjecting creation to futility in hope of it's subsequent liberation was man?

Am I understanding you correctly?

Much love!
Mark

I believe that it was God that subject it to futility because of man' fall, and that it will one day be reborn just as God's chosen will be reborn

 

[marks]

I believe that it was God that subject it to futility because of man' fall, and that it will one day be reborn just as God's chosen will be reborn

OK. You had written:

This verse comes to mind, showing that it was brought into bondage by the sins of man, and will one day be freed from its agony by Christ

If I'm understanding you correctly then, you are saying that God subjected creation to futility because of man's sins, is that right? That's what I think too. And for the purpsose that it would one day be undone.

I can't wait!

Much love!

 

[Mjh29]

OK. You had written:

This verse comes to mind, showing that it was brought into bondage by the sins of man, and will one day be freed from its agony by Christ

If I'm understanding you correctly then, you are saying that God subjected creation to futility because of man's sins, is that right? That's what I think too. And for the purpsose that it would one day be undone.

I can't wait!

Much love!

Indeed! This is exactly what I believe! I cannot wait for that day either!

Thank you for the warm conversation, it is indeed a pleasant change!

 

[Jun2u]

If we do not choose to believe, then God makes that choice for us.

Indeed He does in John 6:44.

And that means that God is some kind of Monster who puts people in hell and gives them no option to escape that judgment. This is not the gospel, and neither is it the God of the Bible.

It is people like you who does not know how to read and understand Scripture that makes God a monster. God is not the sinner but man. His sins put him in hell and that is the crux of the Bible and that's the reason we need a Savior.

To God Be The Glory

 

[justbyfaith]

ok, so please explain how faith does not fit the criteria of a work? If both the definition and your pov can both be valid?

I already explained it in the post that I linked you to. Just think about what I posted; don't make me do all the work.

Hence, the rest of humanity DO NOT POSSESS FREE WILLS!!! Because they are dead and have no life in them.

Robots? No, dogs or swine.

The reason why people sin is not because they don't choose to do so, that eliminates human responsibility. The reason why people sin is because they are inclined to do so; it is their nature. People are capable of going against their inclinations if they have a good enough reason to do so.

So you are a heretic by historic Christian and biblical definitions.

Dave, I am putting you on ignore. Should have done so a long time ago. You are rude and seek to be offensive. And you keep lying.

 

[Dave L]

I already explained it in the post that I linked you to. Just think about what I posted; don't make me do all the work.



Robots? No, dogs or swine.

The reason why people sin is not because they don't choose to do so, that eliminates human responsibility. The reason why people sin is because they are inclined to do so; it is their nature. People are capable of going against their inclinations if they have a good enough reason to do so.



Dave, I am putting you on ignore. Should have done so a long time ago. You are rude and seek to be offensive. And you keep lying.

Thanks. I appreciate your ignoring me.

 

[Mjh29]

Are you going to go by a faulty dictionary definition or are you going to go by the Bible?

the definition can be valid and my pov also valid.

What you have given me so far is a bunch of contradictions. Verses contradicting your claims, some of your claims contradicting other claims... You never once told me how faith is not a work, when you yourself said that the definition can be valid... but only when viewed from your POV I suppose?

 

[justbyfaith]

Indeed He does in John 6:44.



It is people like you who does not know how to read and understand Scripture that makes God a monster. God is not the sinner but man. His sins put him in hell and that is the crux of the Bible and that's the reason we need a Savior.

To God Be The Glory

No, I do not make God into a Monster because I do not hold to the Calvinistic view of God, a god who puts people in hell over their sins and when they do what it takes to be saved, he still rejects them, saying, "you weren't really one of my elect, so it doesn't matter that you called on my name for salvation."

The God I believe in is no Monster: those who reject Him from my pov go to hell not because He chose that for them against their will, but because they chose to go there against His.

The God I know and serve is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

"Repent" is not a valid word in Calvinism. Probably the reason why abject sinners like that doctrine so much.

 

[justbyfaith]

What you have given me so far is a bunch of contradictions. Verses contradicting your claims, some of your claims contradicting other claims... You never once told me how faith is not a work, when you yourself said that the definition can be valid... but only when viewed from your POV I suppose?

I did tell you...

I will post the link to the post shortly.

Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied