Is the Holy Spirit needed to believe initially?

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Dave L

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Come on, Dave. I've been reading your posts for quite awhile now and I know what you believe. I wasn't saying you do not manifest Christian traits. I was saying your doctrine on the baptism of the Holy Spirit has no foundation in actual experience, and there are a number of people on this Forum who would agree with me on that. As for your being in line with historic Baptist and Reformed Theology in the matter, I'm also well aware of this. If you were paying attention to me at all you would know I think they are largely ignorant about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as well. I believe you posted recently about many people on the Christian Forums not thinking or studying for themselves but simply following the denominational lines they have been taught to follow. Yet this is actually what you do more than anyone here.
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, one must have, before faith (the fruit) exists. And Peter says the baptism comes through repentance in Acts 2:38. So it is you who do not understand the doctrine.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, one must have, before faith (the fruit) exists. And Peter says the baptism comes through repentance in Acts 2:38. So it is you who do not understand the doctrine.

I understand it. I just flatly disagree with it, and there's a difference. But discussing doctrine with you is usually like putting money in a gumball machine and never getting anything back, LoL. I was just commenting on the fact that you speak largely from theory, much like those you fall in line with on doctrinal matters. But I wouldn't pride myself in agreeing with them if I were you. When all is said and done, you may find out you were following blind men.
 

Heart2Soul

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, one must have, before faith (the fruit) exists. And Peter says the baptism comes through repentance in Acts 2:38. So it is you who do not understand the doctrine.
Faith is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit....
Galations 5:22
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.….

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God..
Romans 10:17-21 King James Version (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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Dave L

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Dave L

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I understand it. I just flatly disagree with it, and there's a difference. But discussing doctrine with you is usually like putting money in a gumball machine and never getting anything back, LoL. I was just commenting on the fact that you speak largely from theory, much like those you fall in line with on doctrinal matters. But I wouldn't pride myself in agreeing with them if I were you. When all is said and done, you may find out you were following blind men.
Did Peter tell believers to repent so they could receive the promised baptism of the Holy Spirit?
 

Hidden In Him

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Did Peter tell believers to repent so they could receive the promised baptism of the Holy Spirit?

I told you. There's not much point in getting into things with you because whenever you are confronted with scriptures that dismantle your positions, you usually just side-step and double down on statements you've already made so you don't have to actually respond to things you have no answers for. I've been through it too many times with ya already, so I'll just let people like Enoch do so if he has the time and patience.

It's not like I'm trying to insult you, but this is what happens when you refuse to respond to people after they take the time to get involved in a discussion with you. Next time I do decide to, don't flippantly dismiss posts that present problems to your positions instead of actually dealng with them. Maybe I'll be more inclined to have a discussion with you again.

Blessings in Christ.
 
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Dave L

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I told you. There's not much point in getting into things with you because whenever you are confronted with scriptures that dismantle your positions, you usually just side-step and double down on statements you've already made so you don't have to actually respond to things you have no answers for. I've been through it too many times with ya already, so I'll just let people like Enoch do so if he has the time and patience.

It's not like I'm trying to insult you, but this is what happens when you refuse to respond to people after they take the time to get involved in a discussion with you. Next time I do decide to, don't flippantly dismiss posts that present problems to your positions instead of actually dealng with them. Maybe I'll be more inclined to have a discussion with you again.

Blessings in Christ.
Let's face it, Peter said the baptism comes through repentance. And Paul says faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You must have the Holy Spirit before you can have faith/faithfulness.
 

Heart2Soul

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Faith/faithfulness are the same Greek word.
No....faithfulness in this context is the same as trustworthiness....
“Faithfulness” is translated from the Greek word pistis. In the King James Version this word is translated “faith.” Pistis includes both meanings (faith and faithfulness), but in Galatians 5:22 it seems to carry more of the meaning “trustworthiness or reliability” (Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary note on Galatians 5:22).

The Bible provides a fundamental description of pistis in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
 
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Dave L

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No....faithfulness in this context is the same as trustworthiness....
“Faithfulness” is translated from the Greek word pistis. In the King James Version this word is translated “faith.” Pistis includes both meanings (faith and faithfulness), but in Galatians 5:22 it seems to carry more of the meaning “trustworthiness or reliability” (Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary note on Galatians 5:22).

The Bible provides a fundamental description of pistis in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
But it comes from the Holy Spirit, not from the flesh.
 

Heart2Soul

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But it comes from the Holy Spirit, not from the flesh.
Faith is what I must choose out of my own free will to believe and through hearing the Word my faith grow.....faithfulness is what the Holy Spirit gives me to empower me to remain strong in my Faith.
 
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Dave L

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Faith is what I must choose out of my own free will to believe and through hearing the Word my faith grow.....faithfulness is what the Holy Spirit gives me to empower me to remain strong in my Faith.
You have no free will to chose righteousness. You can choose only sin. Whatever is not of faith is sin. And faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe in any true sense.
 

Heart2Soul

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You have no free will to chose righteousness. You can choose only sin. Whatever is not of faith is sin. And faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can believe in any true sense.
please stay with the context....free will to choose to believe has nothing to do with righteousness....our righteousness is of Christ. I have free will to choose to believe in God and the Word or to reject it.
 
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Dave L

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please stay with the context....free will to choose to believe has nothing to do with righteousness....our righteousness is of Christ. I have free will to choose to believe in God and the Word or to reject it.
This is flesh faith. The same as you have in deciding whether or not to buy a car. It has no power to save.
 

bbyrd009

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please stay with the context....free will to choose to believe has nothing to do with righteousness....our righteousness is of Christ. I have free will to choose to believe in God and the Word or to reject it.
amen. Actual faith in God might be another matter, but we are def called to change our minds ourselves imo, even if our beliefs do reflect our faith i guess
 
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1stCenturyLady

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That is TOTAL NONSENSE and unbiblical to boot. No one can be regenerated with having first received the gift of the Holy Ghost, and no one can receive that gift until and unless they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37,38)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

Yes, he is stuck in a rut believing that one of the fruit of the Spirit called faithfulness, or the ability to endure to the end, to persevere, is saving faith because some translations call it faith. He's made a whole other doctrine based on this error. So, is seems, did John Calvin.
 
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Enoch111

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This is flesh faith. The same as you have in deciding whether or not to buy a car. It has no power to save.
Dave,

You are striving to be a Calvinist and falling flat on your face. I already told you that there is no such thing as "flesh faith" but you keep bringing up this nonsense.

Now the famous C. H. Spurgeon was a Gospel preacher as well as a Calvinist, and this is what he said: “Faith comes by hearing.” If I earnestly and attentively hear the gospel, it may be that one of these days I shall find myself believing that which I hear, through the blessed operation of the Spirit upon my mind.

This is exactly what I have been telling you but you have refused to even think about this. That shows bondage to a cult.

When the Gospel is preached (or read) it becomes the power of God unto salvation since the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel (the Word of God) to generate faith. That is exactly what Calvinist Spurgeon says above.
 
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101G

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Addressing the OP only,
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

the Spirit is the Gospel.

PICJAG.
 

1stCenturyLady

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We have gifts attributed to be from the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 for the profit of all; gifts or offices attributed to be from Jesus, the Son, in Ephesians 4 for the Church; but I see that the Father gives gifts to all men in Romans 12, not just to Christians. And one of these gifts God the Father gives to mankind is a measure of faith. But our free will will either accept Jesus through that measure of faith, or reject Jesus and deep down knows that they are not willing to give up darkness.

The reason I believe Romans 12 gifts are to all is because all good things come from the Father. Look at Hitler and his ability to lead a nation - that is a gift of God he used for darkness.
 
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Dave L

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Dave,

You are striving to be a Calvinist and falling flat on your face. I already told you that there is no such thing as "flesh faith" but you keep bringing up this nonsense.

Now the famous C. H. Spurgeon was a Gospel preacher as well as a Calvinist, and this is what he said: “Faith comes by hearing.” If I earnestly and attentively hear the gospel, it may be that one of these days I shall find myself believing that which I hear, through the blessed operation of the Spirit upon my mind.

This is exactly what I have been telling you but you have refused to even think about this. That shows bondage to a cult.

When the Gospel is preached (or read) it becomes the power of God unto salvation since the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel (the Word of God) to generate faith. That is exactly what Calvinist Spurgeon says above.
People buy advertised products by faith who are not saved. But only Holy Spirit faith saves. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit are not saved. No matter how fervent their faith in their ideas about Christ.
 
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101G

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We have gifts attributed to be from the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 for the profit of all; gifts or offices attributed to be from Jesus, the Son, in Ephesians 4 for the Church; but I see that the Father gives gifts to all men in Romans 12, not just to Christians. And one of these gifts God the Father gives to mankind is a measure of faith. But our free will will either accept Jesus through that measure of faith, or reject Jesus and deep down knows that they are not willing to give up darkness.

The reason I believe Romans 12 gifts are to all is because all good things come from the Father. Look at Hitler and his ability to lead a nation - that is a gift of God he used for darkness.
a gift.. or a talent?

PICJAG