Are you honestly claiming than man has grounds to demand things from God?
Calvinism is NOT a Cult!
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Are you honestly claiming than man has grounds to demand things from God?
I have been doing so. Y'all don't have an adequate answer for Romans 5:2...why should I bring up anything else until you have answered it? I'm trying to make it easy for you...
Of course there is more than one verse that teaches it. Please forgive me for being lazy, O great ones!
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Well, if you are going to tell someone their beliefs are wrong, you better come prepared with facts, not conjecture and 1 warped view of a verse. No apologize to me needed.
Of course not. But I don't know how God will be able to live with Himself if He does not at least offer salvation to every man, since He claims to be infinite love.
And the god of Calvinism does not do that...instead, he says, I reserve the right to reject anyone that comes to me...even though the God of the Bible said, Whoever comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
I'm certainly not denying the doctrine of Total Depravity...but I do believe that Jeremiah 17:9 is the best verse on the subject...and that there is no need for the most part to even bring up the others...because it proclaims it so perfectly in a nutshell.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
No you're being dishonest again. I've already shown you the context of Romans 5 is to the converted, not the unconverted. Look again at Romans 5:1. It's sadly obvious you do not behave like you're converted yourself.
You make it out like man is this innocent thing who isn't bad; just confused. This is not what the Scriptures say. How would God live with Himself? The same way He did when He wiped out the entire population save 1 family; knowing that every desire of man's heart was only evil continually.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
So, God has to be fair according to your standards or he can't live with himself and can't be God. Yep. That's it. You've created your own god and have projected your demands on the God in Scripture who is revealed to us. You are the Romans 9:20 man.
Oh, by the way, no one can come to Christ, they are unable.
I asked you before and I will ask again: What does the word "access" mean to you?
You seem to think that the Lord did not have a testimony and that He did not offer salvation to the people who lived before the flood. Noah was a preacher of righteousness.
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Reminds me of Jude 1:16 (kjv).
Calvin must have thought long and hard about how to make his doctrine viable...
And that also reminds me of Ephesians 4:14 (kjv).
Calvin must have thought long and hard about how to make his doctrine viable...
And that also reminds me of Ephesians 4:14 (kjv).
And yet God declared what was in their hearts! How dare He! How can God claim what a person's heart is like; what gives Him the right! Maybe all these people were sinning because that is how they were going to attain their faith! Why did God Himself close the doors to the Ark? What if one of those poor people finally decided they wanted to make the right choice, but the door was closed?
God knew all who would believe in Him because faith is of Him. That is why when He closed the door, He could do so knowing there were not going to be any last-minute "Oh well, beggars-cant-be-choosers"
In your estimation, how is it that Calvinism doesn't proclaim a god that simply wanted to condemn certain people; and chose to save others so that it would sting all the more for those who were condemned; and then put a tree in a garden that he knew man would eventually partake of so that he could make that his excuse for condemning billions of people to hell?
The God I serve saw a problem with sin and did what He could to rectify it for all who were affected by it. But some chose to reject the remedy that He came up with.
It is the goodness of God that is at the crux of this issue.
It is the goodness of God that is at the crux of this issue.
But this adheres to your views, does it not? If not, explain how so?
This is not at all what I believe. I was merely discerning from your previous statements the logical conclusion based on your thinking.
Your God sounds weak.
"Oh, I tried.... I really tried. But... but there's nothing I can do! They keep overpowering my want to help them with their sin!! Darn.... I was so close too! I really thought that would work!"
No, it is whether or not God is actually in ANY control of His creation that is the crux.
1Co 1:25, Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
The God I serve created angels and men in His own image...with free moral agency. He Himself is free, and He wants His creation to be free.
A host of robots saying to Him, "I love you" was not going to cut it for Him. For love to mean something, it has to be given freely.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (freedom).
People often wonder what is original sin? I will tell you that while freedom is not a sin, that freedom allowed God's creation to make the choice to sin.
Your god basically says, "I am Omnipotent and I am going to put certain people in the lake of fire whether they like it or not. They have no choice in the matter; because I am Omnipotent. And I am going to give some people pleasure in heaven so that the suffering of those that I torture will sting all the worse!"
You assume that you are one of the elect or else you wouldn't buy into this propaganda for the devil. And as one who is redeemed, if you thought about how it might come across to someone who does not know that they are one of the elect, you wouldn't preach it.
It is a damnable heresy as far as I'm concerned; and it hides behind "the glory of God".
Shame on all of you for believing such garbage!
Agreed. So he gave Adam the choice; will you follow me, or sell your will to sin and death? And Adam chose sin and death.
This verse does not at all prove your point. This verse proves just how powerless we really are compared to God, and that all things are in His hand [note how when you quoted a verse, I dealt with the verse you quoted, and didn't just brush it of and try to quote some different verse?]
And where is the Spirit of God? With those same people whom it regenerated. By saying this, logically to be freedom there must also be bondage from which to be freed. And what bondage are men freed from? The bondage of Satan on their wills. Only when the Spirit has worked in and on the heart of a sinner, and freed him from his own sin nature, can one truly be free. That is where the Spirit of the Lord i; with those whom it regenerated by grace through faith
[again, you quoted a passage, I met the challenge head on. THIS is actual debate and discussion I hold enough respect for you to actually respond to your claims, and not try to hop onto another topic.]
Yep. And this same freedom Adam used to condemn us to the punishment of our wills from then on choosing to serve the same thing he did; sin and Satan.
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