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Calvinism is NOT a Cult!

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Mjh29, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    Westminster Confession of Faith
    Chapter II
    Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

    I. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts,or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments,hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

    Deut 6:4; 1 Cor 8:4, 6, Jer 10:10; 1 Thes 1:9., Job 11:7-9; 26:14. , John 4:24. , 1 Tim 1:17. , Deut 4:15-16; John 4:24 with Luke 24:39. , Acts 14:11, 15. , Mal 3:6; James 1:17., 1 Kings 8:27; Jer 23:23-24. , Psa 90:2; 1 Tim 1:17. , Psa 145:3. ,Gen 17:1; Rev 4:8. , Rom 16:27. , Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8. , Psa 115:3. , Exod 3:14. , Eph 1:11. , Prov 16:4; Rom 11:36. , 1 John 4:8, 16., Exod 34:6-7. , Heb 11:6. , Neh 9:32-33. , Psa 5:5-6. , Exod 34:7; Nahum 1:2-3.

    II. God has all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto he himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he has made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleases. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

    John 5:26. , Acts 7:2. , Psa 119:68. , Rom 9:5; 1 Tim 6:15. , Acts 17:24-25. , Job 22:2-3. , Rom 11:36. Dan 4:25, 35; 1 Tim 6:15; Rev 4:11. , Heb 4:13. , Psa 147:5; Rom 11:33-34. , Ezek 11:5; Acts 15:18. Psa 145:17; Rom 7:12. , Rev 5:12-14.

    III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

    Mat 3:16-17; 28:19; 2 Cor 13:14; 1 John 5:7. , John 1:14, 18. , John 15:26; Gal 4:6.

    I have read on a previous thread that the God of Calvinism is not the God of Scripture.... I do not understand what about this God is not Scriptural.
     
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  2. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    That’s a God to worship
     
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  3. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed! And a God that truly reflects the God of Scripture; loving, just, and in complete control of His entire creation
     
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  4. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Indeed...in spirit and in truth (John 4.24).
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing you posted that supports Calvinism.

    In fact it denies Calvinism by demonstrating free well.

     
  6. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    .... Do you know what the Westminster Confession even IS?

    This is the prominent Presbyterian confession

    It is about as Reformed [Calvinistic] as it gets

    Seems to me you don't know Calvinism as well as you thought you did...
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I quoted from the confession. Definitely not a Calvinistic statement.

    The beliefs of 1647 are not the releases today in many areas.

    Plus it's more of a Church of England document. In the Calvinistic tradition does not mean it's strictly Calvinist.

    Not to mention the Presbyterian Church didn't exist until 1600s.

    Reformation Theology: The Westminster Confession of Faith
     
  8. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    The historic confessions stand against all such error as you offer
     
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  9. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Free will does not exist
    Did you notice not one of your 79 verses had the words free will in them and taught no such concept
     
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Cultists are generally blissfully unaware that they are in bondage to a cult.

    I would challenge every Calvinist to read this excellent E-book written by David Cloud and wake up. He has done his due diligence. One of his subtitles is "Calvinism’s doctrines are contrary to the plain teaching of God’s Word".

    The Calvinism Debate

    I have examined Calvinism many times during the past four decades and have read materials such as Calvin’s Institutes; Arthur Pink’s The Sovereignty of God; the Westminster Confession of Faith; Iain Murray’s Spurgeon vs. the Hyper-Calvinists; Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views by Dave Hunt and James White, to name a few. As best as I know how, I have studied these materials with the sole desire to know the truth and to follow it wherever it leads.

    I have made a considerable effort to understand Calvinism properly and not to misrepresent it (though I have learned that a non-Calvinist will ALWAYS be charged with misrepresentation). The chapters in this book include The Central Errors of Calvinism, Beware of Quick Prayerism, Calvin’s Camels (Scriptures that contradict Calvinism), Calvinism’s Proof Texts Examined, and What about Hyper-Calvinism?

    ..it [Calvinism] must be faced because it touches some of the most important points of biblical truth and affects how Christians perceive of the gospel and the very person of God. -- David Cloud


    Read the PDF Book Now
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Not against the Bible.

    I showed where this confession denies Calvinism.
     
  12. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    both the 1644 and the 1689 are both Calvinistic confessions
     
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  13. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    David Cloud is easily refuted and you follow his false teaching so you are also easily refuted
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  14. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    Church of England?!.... This originated in Scotland! How much about this confession do you actually know?

    Well, I'm glad you like it! In that case;

    Chapter 9 – Of Free Will


    I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

    II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.

    III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

    IV. When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

    V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutable free to good alone, in the state of glory only.


    Chapter 10 – Of Effectual Calling


    I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

    II. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

    III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

    IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the law of that religion they do profess; and to assert and maintain that they may is without warrant of the Word of God.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  15. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Nothing in there denies free will in seeking God. Nothing.

    Nothing says a word about the predestiny of some to hell.
     
  16. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

    ....
    All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ .... Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved

    .... are you even reading Anthony and my posts, or are you just replying? Because that is exactly what this is saying.
     
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  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    is not able, by his own strength Is talking about sin nature, not being predestined to hell.

    Romans 8 says those he foreknew will love him are predestined, not those who are predestined to love.

    What you posted says the same thing in effect. They never truly came Christ, meaning they could've come to Christ but didn't.

    And the Bible addresses Others, not elected When it says those who have tasted the Holy Spirit will walk away have no hope remaining for redemption. Remaining means they had hope but threw it a way.

    I read an answer but you ignore the answers.
     
  18. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    the stupids.gif


    This is what tells me right away that you will read into whatever verse or confession we produce exactly what you want it to say. Good news, I found a tee shirt that adheres to your logic! ;)
    bacon tee.jpg

    The Presbyterian church is Calvinistic. It was started by John Knox, one of the leaders of the Reformation. I know why you are so adamant about proving that this document isn't Calvinistic; because you realize that there is nothing in this document to hate, and nothing that is unscriptural. Here's the delema;

    We know the Westminster Confession is Calvinistic, yet you agree with it. Either;
    1.) You have had a completely wrong definition of Calvinism, and have spent a bunch of time barking up the wrong tree
    2.) You realize that this is Scriptural, and therefore must make it fit what you think is the Gospel message by doing what every Arminian does; twisting words to make them say something they dont. We could get into the actual predestination section if you want to.... and see how you can somehow make it say free will?
    arminius.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I agreed with what was said not your interpretation. Free will was a repeated theme in what was said.

    You do not seem to understand the Presbyterian Church didn't exist when that confession was written. The main church involved in it was a Church of England.

    Nor did Calvin believe what modern Calvinism believes.

    The predestination of the Bible is very different than Calvinism.
     
  20. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

    What do you not understand about WHOLLY LOST ALL ABILITY OF WILL? I am honestly baffled at this blatant ignoring of fact and claiming it says the opposite.

    This is so blatantly wrong that even secular Wikipedia knows. The Presbyterian Church was the one that wrote the confession in the first place!


    Presbyterian history is part of the history of Christianity, but the beginning of Presbyterianism as a distinct movement occurred during the 16th-century Protestant Reformation. As the Catholic Church resisted the reformers, several different theological movements splintered from the Church and bore different denominations. Presbyterianism was especially influenced by the French theologian John Calvin, who is credited with the development of Reformed theology, and the work of John Knox, a Scotsman and a Roman Catholic Priest, who studied with Calvin in Geneva, Switzerland. He brought back Reformed teachings to Scotland. The Presbyterian church traces its ancestry back primarily to England and Scotland. In August 1560 the Parliament of Scotland adopted the Scots Confession as the creed of the Scottish Kingdom. In December 1560, the First Book of Discipline was published, outlining important doctrinal issues but also establishing regulations for church government, including the creation of ten ecclesiastical districts with appointed superintendents which later became known as presbyteries.[22]

    In time, the Scots Confession would be supplanted by the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms, which were formulated by the Westminster Assembly between 1643 and 1649.

    Now this I may actually be able to agree with. There is a difference between Calvinism, and what people think is Calvinism, which is actually called hyper Calvinism. 2 totally different things

    Bold claim. Would love to see the facts that show that the Calvinistic view of predestination is different than that of Scripture?
     
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