The Coming Great Apostasy

[Earburner]

Mat. 13[49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your welcome!
BTW, I study the KJV only. I already gave my testimony of why, here on this thread.
I also do understand why the KJV translators were persuaded to write 2 Thes. 2:8 in the manner they did. 1611 was not far from the Protestant Reformation.
Ahh...now we can see the bigger picture of their faulty reasoning.

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.[2 Thessalonians 2]

Here Paul is comforting the believers at Thessalonica. Apparently, word had spread that the second advent of the Christ had already taken place. So, he is writing to them to refute that notion.

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.[2 Thessalonians 2]

Here we see Paul speaking about a person, not a mass of ppl.

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Here he stated that the lawless one will be revealed at the Christ's second advent. So, this can not be Antiochus Epiphanes, neither can it be the papacy en toto(as I once believed), but a man. A man who will deceive many prior to the second advent of the Christ.

 

[Earburner]

Agreed.
You may not accept that the Little Horn in both its phases is the Roman Empire/Papacy, but there's no way it's Antiochus the Chump. I've given you several solid reasons in post 439 for why he is disqualified.
The Holy Spirit says, "Come now, let us reason together." There's nothing reasonable about insisting Antiochus the Chump is the Little Horn, as I've clearly delineated in post 439.

Sorry, I cannot see post numbers on a mobile device.
.
According to the angel Gabriel's interpretation, there are only two facts, concerning "a little horn" .
Fact #1: Antiochus Epiphanes, of the 3rd beast, was the one and only "little horn" ever to be!
Fact #2: There is no "little horn" that rises from the 4th beast!
.
Prior to studying the interpretations given to Daniel, read them in conjunction with the historical account of 1 Maccabees, by the Jews themselves, aka
"the Holy people", "the host of heaven".
.
Dan. 8:8-14 is a more detailed interpretation of Dan. 7:7-12.
Please compare the two interpretations, and by all means DO NOT include any of the visions, of which Daniel himself speaks of in his OWN words.
Just use the visions as a reference only.
The authority here are the angels, who are speaking God's words to Daniel.

 

[Earburner]

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.[2 Thessalonians 2]

Here Paul is comforting the believers at Thessalonica. Apparently, word had spread that the second advent of the Christ had already taken place. So, he is writing to them to refute that notion.

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.[2 Thessalonians 2]

Here we see Paul speaking about a person, not a mass of ppl.

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Here he stated that the lawless one will be revealed at the Christ's second advent. So, this can not be Antiochus Epiphanes, neither can it be the papacy en toto(as I once believed), but a man. A man who will deceive many prior to the second advent of the Christ.

Thank you for your reply.
Have you considered the following fact?
Everyone who is NOT "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, they have not the Righteousness of Christ, and therefore by default, they remain to be lawless, because they are "none of His"- Rom. 8:9

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thank you for your reply.
Have you considered the following fact?
Everyone who is NOT "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, they have not the Righteousness of Christ, and therefore by default, they remain to be lawless, because they are "none of His"- Rom. 8:9

I agree. John touches on this in 1 John 3 that unbelievers have the spirit of anti-Christ residing in them.

 

[Earburner]

I agree. John touches on this in 1 John 3 that unbelievers have the spirit of anti-Christ residing in them.

Correct. They all, who are "none of His", are "the natural man", "condemned already", aka "the wicked", being each one "ungodly", "that man of sin", the son of perdition", "because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Rom. 8:9
1 Cor. 2:14
John 3:18
Mat. 13:49
jude 1:4; 2Pet. 3:7
2 Thes. 2:8
John 3:18

 

[brakelite]

Most Christians are aware that the first beast of Revelation 13 is a representation of the Antichrist...a grown up "little horn" of Daniel 7 now a beast in its own right. A composite of all the beasts previously given us in Daniel, that little horn inheriting all the characteristics of those ancient pagan church/state unions that preceded it. What most do not realise is how that beast so resembles the true Christ. Which leads us to the obvious conclusion that the Antichrist is not an irreligious enemy of Christianity, but on the contrary, a counterfeit carbon copy, mimicking the true, claiming the same prerogatives...the same entitlements...the same privileges as the true church; but being a blasphemous entity, these entitlements are beyond its capacity to rightly claim...they are the prerogatives of God Himself, thus he sits in the temple of God (the church) claiming he is God (by undermining God's true authority).
Thus the real meaning of the term and name, Antichrist, is instead of...replacement for. This Antiochus did not do...this the popular future anti-Christian war-mongering tyrant of the left behind movies, cannot do. There is only one candidate that meets all the criteria. And if the Christian church doesn't hurry up and ask for the eye-salve Jesus promises the sleeping luke-warm Laodicean "I have everything" pew warmers, they will be deceived by the very entity they claim cannot possibly exist because he is "yet to come", everyone totally blind and unaware of the fact that he has been leaning over the back fence acting the friendly neighbour for centuries. That barbecue he has invited you to...well my friends, you are on the menu.

 

[Earburner]

1. Most Christians are aware that the first beast of Revelation 13 is a representation of the Antichrist...
2. a grown up "little horn" of Daniel 7 now a beast in its own right.
3. A composite of all the beasts previously given us in Daniel, that little horn inheriting all the characteristics of those ancient pagan church/state unions that preceded it.
4. What most do not realise is how that beast so resembles the true Christ.
5. Which leads us to the obvious conclusion that the Antichrist is not an irreligious enemy of Christianity, but on the contrary, a counterfeit carbon copy, mimicking the true, claiming the same prerogatives...the same entitlements...the same privileges as the true church; but being a blasphemous entity, these entitlements are beyond its capacity to rightly claim...they are the prerogatives of God Himself, thus he sits in the temple of God (the church) claiming he is God (by undermining God's true authority).
6. Thus the real meaning of the term and name, Antichrist, is instead of...replacement for.
7. This Antiochus did not do...this the popular future anti-Christian war-mongering tyrant of the left behind movies, cannot do.
8. There is only one candidate that meets all the criteria. And if the Christian church doesn't hurry up and ask for the eye-salve Jesus promises the sleeping luke-warm Laodicean "I have everything" pew warmers, they will be deceived by the very entity they claim cannot possibly exist because he is "yet to come", everyone totally blind and unaware of the fact that he has been leaning over the back fence acting the friendly neighbour for centuries. That barbecue he has invited you to...well my friends, you are on the menu.

1. Only duped Christians think what you are saying, and unfortunately, MOST ARE duped!
.
2. Learn your Daniel, "horns" are NEVER beasts!
.
3. No, the 4th beast was a composite of the three beasts before it, of which was in full tilt in the days of Jesus' first appearance.
.
4. You are implying that the 4th beast is no longer a "he", but rather is now a "she". You have not learned your Daniel.
.
5. Wrong! That is NOT the description provided in 2 Thes 2
.
6. Wrong! To be against Christ, is having no need of Christ. All of such are in denial, that Jesus is THE Christ, and are "already condemned" John 3:18
1John 2[22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
.
7. Correct! As a "horn" , a king of a kingdom (3rd beast), all A. Epiphanes did was commit the "AoD", a physical act of "trodding down" "the Holy people", "the host of heaven", being Israel at that time, which was the type to the antitype, who was Jesus and the temple of His physical body.
.
8. There is NO "little horn" to come or has come, that the "scholarly learned religious" love to call "THE" Antichrist!

 

[bbyrd009]

Correct.

Wrong!

Wrong!

Correct!

narf bro you are a hoot if I were to Quote some Scripture for this you would d...
well, you would not like it I bet ok.
have you seen "sprinkling/raining" yet bac?

 

[bbyrd009]

he who says he knows does not yet know as he ought

I mean no offense here, honest ok, but you may as well be standing on a soapbox screaming "everything I say is a lie!"

even when you get something right, it will not be considered I guess, that what you want Eb? That how you're gonna go out, pontificating to the air? ive seen that a few times now, not very pretty ok

 

[Earburner]

he who says he knows does not yet know as he ought

I mean no offense here, honest ok, but you may as well be standing on a soapbox screaming "everything I say is a lie!"

even when you get something right, it will not be considered I guess, that what you want Eb? That how you're gonna go out, pontificating to the air? ive seen that a few times now, not very pretty ok

All I hope for in others, is for them to look into His Truth, and be willing to let go of of their false doctrines of "church-ianity" , and stand with the Lord alone!
Apparently you and many others here are afraid of being "unliked" and unpopular. Jesus does understand the issue of being unpopular!

 

[Earburner]

 

[Phoneman777]

Question: what temple does the Lord desire to dwell in?
Ans. 1Cor. 3:16
.
What visible example did Jesus provide, of what the temple is?
Ans. John 2:21
.
If God is not Living/Dwelling within us, who is?
Ans. 1Cor. 2:14
.
What is the association that God/Jesus have, with those described in 1 Cor. 2:14?
Ans. Rom. 8:9

We seem to agree on many things despite our differences about the Little Horn

 

[Phoneman777]

Sorry, I cannot see post numbers on a mobile device.
.
According to the angel Gabriel's interpretation, there are only two facts, concerning "a little horn" .
Fact #1: Antiochus Epiphanes, of the 3rd beast, was the one and only "little horn" ever to be!
Fact #2: There is no "little horn" that rises from the 4th beast!
.
Prior to studying the interpretations given to Daniel, read them in conjunction with the historical account of 1 Maccabees, by the Jews themselves, aka
"the Holy people", "the host of heaven".
.
Dan. 8:8-14 is a more detailed interpretation of Dan. 7:7-12.
Please compare the two interpretations, and by all means DO NOT include any of the visions, of which Daniel himself speaks of in his OWN words.
Just use the visions as a reference only.
The authority here are the angels, who are speaking God's words to Daniel.

Did you know that before the Jesuits introduced Preterism's Antiochus Epiphenes as the Little Horn, it was not interpreted by anyone as such?

 

[Willie T]

If only some of you "Chicken Littles" were older. Almost everything said in these panic type of scare-tactic posts could be pulled from archived letters of decades and decades ago, or even hundreds of years ago, and the only differences between them would be the dates they were written. Yet you don't wake up.

 

[Earburner]

Did you know that before the Jesuits introduced Preterism's Antiochus Epiphenes as the Little Horn, it was not interpreted by anyone as such?

I wasn't aware of anything by that "religious" term.
Since 35 years ago, along with an 8 translation NT,
I threw it out, and all their "religious" terms, that would solidify my mind, by their preconceived, religionist concrete.
Therefore, by His Holy Spirit, and the KJV, I live by the counsel of Isa. 55:8-9; Zech 4:6 and John 16:13.
So, in brief, I learned what you call "Preterism", by the Lord's will and Guidance, and not by any church's school of "scholarly learning".

 

[Phoneman777]

I wasn't aware of anything by that "religious" term.
Since 35 years ago, along with an 8 translation NT,
I threw it out, and all their "religious" terms, that would solidify my mind, by their preconceived, religionist concrete.
Therefore, by His Holy Spirit, and the KJV, I live by the counsel of Isa. 55:8-9; Zech 4:6 and John 16:13.
So, in brief, I learned what you call "Preterism", by the Lord's will and Guidance, and not by any church's school of "scholarly learning".

A little "little known" church history: In the early 1500s, catholic monk Martin Luther became tortured in his soul that he was too sinful too be accepted of God and after nearly driving himself mad with attempts to earn His favor, he discovered the light of God's Word which revealed "salvation by grace through faith, not works".

Luther's contemporary, Ignacious Loyola, also was seeking such acceptance of God and demanded from God a sign that he was accepted.

Both Luther and Loyola found satisfaction, the one casting himself wholly on the promises of our Savior God in Scripture, and the other on satanic supernatural signs - which formed the basis for "the Spiritual Exercises of Loyola" - that would begin to come to him and deceive him and the others which would follow him.

Luther discovered "salvation by grace through faith, not works" and began teaching this as the most fundamental doctrine in Christianity, and accused the church of teaching many unBiblical errors and attempted to correct these errors and reform his beloved catholic church. Leadership not only rejected his attempt to do so, but demanded he cease and desist. He was eventually excommunicated for his trouble and marked for death, but undeterred, he continued his study of Scripture until it lead him to another discovery: The papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy.

These two discoveries about true salvation and the papal Antichrist formed the "Twin Pillars of the Protestant Reformation. This eschatological view of the papacy as Antichrist, known as Historicism, convinced thousands and thousands of Christians to leave the catholic church and join Protestantism. This caused such a crisis in catholicism, that a council was held to establish the "Counter-Reformation" - a movement within the papacy to destroy the Protestant Reformation.

It was at this time the evil Jesuits were put into this service. The pope commissioned Jesuit priests to extract from the Bible an eschatological interpretation which would exonerate the papacy, and soon two Jesuit interpretations were produced: Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism.

Jesuit Luis Alcazar formulated Preterism which says the Antichrist already arose in the first century and that all the prophecies of the Bible including the Second Coming had been fulfilled.

Jesuit Francisco Ribera formulated Futurism which says that the Antichrist is one evil dude who will come at the end of time during the last seven years of tribulation (which is the "70th Week" of Daniel which Jesuit Ribera chopped off and sent down to the end of time leaving a "gap" in between), sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, make a peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews, etc. etc. etc.

The papacy was saying, "Point your finger to the past, the future, ANYWHERE but us."

The Protestants destroyed these ideas with Scripture and sent them underground where they remained for over 300 years while Historicism reigned supreme. About 150 years ago, when Protestants got lazy because nobody was trying to kill them for their beliefs anymore, slowly the sensationalism of Jesuit Futurism began to creep into Protestantism and as the years rolled by, it became more and more popular until today Historicism is all but lost and Futurism is king. Preterism, too, is gaining the ascendancy, and so here we are as Protestants believing that the institution that tried to wipe Protestant "heretics" off the face of the Earth has somehow discovered the "truth" about the end times, while all those great Protestant Reformers were just barking up the wrong tree. I for one will never be seduced by Jesuit lies.

 

[Earburner]

If only some of you "Chicken Littles" were older. Almost everything said in these panic type of scare-tactic posts could be pulled from archived letters of decades and decades ago, or even hundreds of years ago, and the only differences between them would be the dates they were written. Yet you don't wake up.

2Peter 3[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Earburner]

A little "little known" church history: In the early 1500s, catholic monk Martin Luther became tortured in his soul that he was too sinful too be accepted of God and after nearly driving himself mad with attempts to earn His favor, he discovered the light of God's Word which revealed "salvation by grace through faith, not works".

Luther's contemporary, Ignacious Loyola, also was seeking such acceptance of God and demanded from God a sign that he was accepted.

Both Luther and Loyola found satisfaction, the one casting himself wholly on the promises of our Savior God in Scripture, and the other on satanic supernatural signs - which formed the basis for "the Spiritual Exercises of Loyola" - that would begin to come to him and deceive him and the others which would follow him.

Luther discovered "salvation by grace through faith, not works" and began teaching this as the most fundamental doctrine in Christianity, and accused the church of teaching many unBiblical errors and attempted to correct these errors and reform his beloved catholic church. Leadership not only rejected his attempt to do so, but demanded he cease and desist. He was eventually excommunicated for his trouble and marked for death, but undeterred, he continued his study of Scripture until it lead him to another discovery: The papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy.

These two discoveries about true salvation and the papal Antichrist formed the "Twin Pillars of the Protestant Reformation. This eschatological view of the papacy as Antichrist, known as Historicism, convinced thousands and thousands of Christians to leave the catholic church and join Protestantism. This caused such a crisis in catholicism, that a council was held to establish the "Counter-Reformation" - a movement within the papacy to destroy the Protestant Reformation.

It was at this time the evil Jesuits were put into this service. The pope commissioned Jesuit priests to extract from the Bible an eschatological interpretation which would exonerate the papacy, and soon two Jesuit interpretations were produced: Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism.

Jesuit Luis Alcazar formulated Preterism which says the Antichrist already arose in the first century and that all the prophecies of the Bible including the Second Coming had been fulfilled.

Jesuit Francisco Ribera formulated Futurism which says that the Antichrist is one evil dude who will come at the end of time during the last seven years of tribulation (which is the "70th Week" of Daniel which Jesuit Ribera chopped off and sent down to the end of time leaving a "gap" in between), sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, etc. etc. etc.

The Protestants destroyed these ideas with Scripture and sent them underground where they remained for over 300 years while Historicism reigned supreme. About 150 years ago, when Protestants got lazy because nobody was trying to kill them for their beliefs anymore, slowly the sensationalism of Jesuit Futurism began to creep into Protestantism and as the years rolled by, it became more and more popular until today Historicism is all but lost and Futurism is king. Preterism, too, is gaining the ascendancy, and so here we are as Protestants believing that the institution that tried to wipe Protestant "heretics" off the face of the Earth has somehow discovered the "truth" about the end times, while all those great Protestant Reformers were just barking up the wrong tree. I for one will never be seduced by these two Jesuit lies.

And you attend the perfect church here on earth??
It's NOT to be found!!
.
Really?? I didn't just come out of the woods!
I said, I gave up using all "religious" terminology (religious speak) because it locks one up into their tunnel vision world of "church-ianity".
I could care less of what any "Religion" thinks!
I only care about how God THINKS- Isa. 55:8-9

 

[Earburner]

And you attend the perfect church here on earth??
It's NOT to be found!!
.
Really?? I didn't just come out of the woods!
I said, I gave up using all "religious" terminology (religious speak) because it locks one up into their tunnel vision world of "church-ianity".
I could care less of what any "Religion" thinks!
I only care about how God THINKS- Isa. 55:8-9

Correction: And you attend the perfect [visible] church here on earth??