The Coming Great Apostasy

[Earburner]

I agree, even if you seem to be comparing the two whereas I would contrast them, iow I would maybe consider "temple at Jerusalem" might be trying to say "Roman Catholic Church" in our particular lexicon, as maybe bad as that sounds at first. Temple at Jerusalem was, after all, razed to the ground right after we read there about it, right.

And Catholics pls understand I use RCC there strictly as a symbol, and as easily any Prot Principality might be inserted.

Really?? Talk about stretching, to reach for a conclusion!
The minds of men will conclude anything, just to have it so.
Prov.3[5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; andlean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[bbyrd009]

Really?? Talk about stretching, to reach for a conclusion!
The minds of men will conclude anything, just to have it so.
Prov.3[5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; andlean not unto thine own understanding.

Well, you might be right there, but obv that the temple was razed is what we call a foregone conclusion right. If I need to further establish that "the temple in Jerusalem" was completely corrupted then I am prepared to do so I guess. But I would like to reiterate that I am not offering facts here, but rather a perspective, ok? Something to take into consideration iow, not a hard and fast conclusion per se

 

[Phoneman777]

Before you came to faith in Jesus, were you a man of sin, or a man of God's Righteousness?

Let's not pretend that Paul words in 2 Thessalonians aren't referring to the specific, grievous development that is soon to sweep over the entire church: the soon coming, great "apostasia": the "falling away" apostasy in the church orchestrated by the Man of Sin.

The sabbath observance is not that which makes one holy!

Why would you say something that is already so obvious to everyone including us Sabbatarians?

The presence of Christ within us makes us to be Holy, before God the Father.

That fact has nothing to do with God's desire that we evidence that inward holiness by the outward act of keeping the seventh day of the week holy, thereby proving it is the Creator, not the god of this world, Who is our boss.

 

[mjrhealth]

That fact has nothing to do with God's desire that we evidence that inward holiness by the outward act of keeping the seventh day of the week holy, thereby proving it is the Creator, not the god of this world, Who is our boss.

That is because God is our God, not the law.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

yet some still walk in unbelief, and the Law was and never will be ours. the gentiles that is.

 

[Phoneman777]

AoD- listen to the words of how it was described in Daniel-KJV:
Dan.11[31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place [set up] the abomination that maketh desolate (strongs- 8074- to devastate, waste, destroy)

Dan.12[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up [placed], there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
.
> Those words declare that It is the abomination that "maketh" causes to make something desolate.

Jesus told the Jews:
Luke.13[35] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
> So, the question remains, What was the abomination, that made (caused) the house (of Israel) to be desolate?
Let's go back to Daniel in ch. 9
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,...
> Question: who is being spoken of, as being "he" in that verse?
Was it Jesus, or the Roman commander Titus in 70AD.

1) You claimed Antiochus Epiphenes is the Little Horn.
2) You supported that by claiming Antiochus' Jerusalem pork BBQ was the AOD.
3) I showed you that Jesus said that AOD was still future and His description of it perfectly match the events that happened in 70 A.D. Jerusalem.

If you wish to continue this debate, please first acknowledge that you were wrong about Antiochus having anything to do with the AOD, as I do not wish to engage those who resort to deflection when their theories are shown to have inconsistencies. Thank you and praise God for His truth.

 

[Phoneman777]

That is because God is our God, not the law.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

yet some still walk in unbelief, and the Law was and never will be ours. the gentiles that is.

Yes, those who walk in unbelief strive to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

What you Antinomianists fail to realize is that what is said about God is the exact same thing said about His law: Holy, Just, Good, Perfect, Sure, Teacher, Corrector, etc.

Because Antinomianists love the pleasures of breaking the law, it's no wonder they oppose the keeping of the law and indignantly accuse as guilty of "unbelief" those of us who hate sin and strive to overcome it because of what it did to our beloved Savior.

 

[mjrhealth]

Because Antinomianists love the pleasures of breaking the law, it's no wonder they oppose the keeping of the law and indignantly accuse as guilty of "unbelief" those of us who hate sin and strive to overcome it because of what it did to our beloved Savior.

this is your argument, but it is what you all do daily, and that my friend makes you all hypocrits..

Top definition
Hypocrite tells people to not do things they themselves do.

 

[Earburner]

Phoneman wrote:
All this doesn't change the fact that Paul referred to the church symbolically as a "temple" (Gr. "naos"), the same exact word that he uses when describing the "temple (Gr. "naos") of God" in 2 Thessalonians. Since no building in which the animal sacrifices offered would be an official rejection of the Lamb of God and a middle finger in His face would ever be considered by God to be "of God", we find that my idea stands while yours must be abandoned.
>To expound further on what you said, we must agree with your comparison. Indeed, all born again Christians are of the invisible church, ever since Pentecost, and each since then, through faith in Jesus have become the temple of the Living God.
.
What very few fathom, is that God the Father longed for the day of Jesus' first appearance to conqueror sin and death, of whom has freely given to all who believe in Him, the gift of the Person of God the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, every person, being physically born, has that same opportunity to become a temple of the Living God, through faith in His Son Jesus, who is God the Son. However, for all who refuse and/or neglect to receive God's free Gift of Eternal Life, they are "none of His". Rom. 8:9.

 

[Phoneman777]

this is your argument, but it is what you all do daily, and that my friend makes you all hypocrits..

Pointing out that Antinomianists attempt to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith- eternal life - makes me a hypocrite? How?

Top definition Hypocrite tells people to not do things they themselves do.

"A just man falls seven times and rises up again" - which means the Christian may slip and fall into the mud, but asks God to lift him out quickly, clean him off, and then help him to avoid those pitfalls in the future.

Antinomianists make a bee line for the pit, slide in and sit down comfortably in the mud, and refuse to take hold of the Divine rope lowered down to them while boldly proclaiming "FREEDOM IN CHRIST!!!"

 

[Earburner]

Rom. 8:9
So then, for all who are "none of His", it's as plain as the nose on your face. They remain to be who they are, as they were physically born. They are "the natural man", sitting in the temple of God, being that of their bodies, and are in direct control of that temple from within themselves, by their own self will, excluding God to the uttermost.
.
Our bodies are quite literally the temples meant for God's dwelling, but those who are without God within, are therefore exactly what the Holy Spirit said they are, explained through Paul: "the man of sin, [who is to] be revealed, the son of perdition". Thes. 2:3.
All of such, are "[non]-partakers of the divine nature.", and remain to be the recipients of destruction (perdition), until they come to repentance towards God, through faith in Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:4

John.2[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

[bbyrd009]

this is your argument, but it is what you all do daily, and that my friend makes you all hypocrits..

Top definition
Hypocrite tells people to not do things they themselves do.

oh, it's not just his argument, so don't kid yourself ok mjr. You blithely contradict Scripture all day long, as your beliefs can only demand that you do I guess. You intentionally conflate 'under the law' and 'keep the law' bc it suits your perspective imo, and your refusal to discuss it is all the proof one needs I think.

and I mean I don't expect this will slow you down either ok, but have no doubt that you will be considered least in the kingdom.

We can read that passage together if you do have any doubt? Or how else might you accept a verdict of your peers here mjr, we can take a poll if you like?

I know, how about we agree in prayer here right now that God might show us which pov is better, mjr? Say the word and I'll say that prayer, ok, but you better understand what that might mean for you first.

I suggest you pick some other method tbh, we could cast lots online pretty easy. Best to keep it in the playpen where it belongs I guess

 

[Earburner]

oh, it's not just his argument, so don't kid yourself ok mjr. You blithely contradict Scripture all day long, as your beliefs can only demand that you do I guess. You intentionally conflate 'under the law' and 'keep the law' bc it suits your perspective imo, and your refusal to discuss it is all the proof one needs I think.

and I mean I don't expect this will slow you down either ok, but have no doubt that you will be considered least in the kingdom.

We can read that passage together if you do have any doubt? Or how else might you accept a verdict of your peers here mjr, we can take a poll if you like?

I know, how about we agree in prayer here right now that God might show us which pov is better, mjr? Say the word and I'll say that prayer, ok, but you better understand what that might mean for you first.

I suggest you pick some other method tbh, we could cast lots online pretty easy. Best to keep it in the playpen where it belongs I guess

How then shall you ever answer Mat. 5:19, in conjunction with
Matt.25[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the LEAST of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
See Mat. 5:20; Luke 11:1 and John 3:3-8.

 

[Earburner]

Correction Luke 11:13

 

[bbyrd009]

How then shall you ever answer Mat. 5:19, in conjunction with
Matt.25[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the LEAST of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
See Mat. 5:20; Luke 11:1 and John 3:3-8.

sorry, not getting you there, could you rephrase that?

 

[Earburner]

sorry, not getting you there, could you rephrase that?

Matt.5[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called THE LEAST IN the kingdom of heaven:
Matt.25[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of THE LEAST of these my BRETHREN, ye have done it unto me.

My point it, the least in the KoH/KoG are His brethren!!
Ffor a thorough explanation, see Rom. 8:9; Mat. 5:19; Luke 11:13 and John 3:3-8.
See Mat. 5:20

 

[bbyrd009]

Matt.5[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called THE LEAST IN the kingdom of heaven:
Matt.25[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of THE LEAST of these my BRETHREN, ye have done it unto me.

My point it, the least in the KoH/KoG are His brethren!!
Ffor a thorough explanation, see Rom. 8:9; Mat. 5:19; Luke 11:13 and John 3:3-8.
See Mat. 5:20

ah ok, ty

 

[Earburner]

Phoneman,
Earburner asked Phoneman:
Before you came to faith in Jesus, were you a man of sin, or a man of God's Righteousness?

PM replied:
Let's not pretend that Paul words in 2 Thessalonians aren't referring to the specific, grievous development that is soon to sweep over the entire church: the soon coming, great "apostasia": the "falling away" apostasy in the church orchestrated by the Man of Sin.
> No one is pretending here but you.
So, I will ask you directly:
Are you a sinner?

 

[Earburner]

1) You claimed Antiochus Epiphenes is the Little Horn.
2) You supported that by claiming Antiochus' Jerusalem pork BBQ was the AOD.
3) I showed you that Jesus said that AOD was still future and His description of it perfectly match the events that happened in 70 A.D. Jerusalem.

If you wish to continue this debate, please first acknowledge that you were wrong about Antiochus having anything to do with the AOD, as I do not wish to engage those who resort to deflection when their theories are shown to have inconsistencies. Thank you and praise God for His truth.

1Mac. 1
[10] And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.

[54] Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;

 

[mjrhealth]

Pointing out that Antinomianists attempt to obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith- eternal life - makes me a hypocrite? How?
"A just man falls seven times and rises up again" - which means the Christian may slip and fall into the mud, but asks God to lift him out quickly, clean him off, and then help him to avoid those pitfalls in the future.

Antinomianists make a bee line for the pit, slide in and sit down comfortably in the mud, and refuse to take hold of the Divine rope lowered down to them while boldly proclaiming "FREEDOM IN CHRIST!!!"

Yes freedom in Christ, Amen to that...

 

[Earburner]

As you can see in the above, Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the prophetic interpretation, as told by the angel, in Daniel.
My argument is that there is no other "little horn" to come, that the churches falsely call "THE" Antichrist.