The Coming Great Apostasy

[Davy]

You don't understand too deeply.
Every person who hath not the Holy Spirit of God, IS NONE OF HIS. Rom. 8:9
So then, if the Spirit of God isn't dwelling within a person, then who is?
Ans. "The natural man" 1 Cor. 2:14

I understand foolishness when I see it. Your application of that 1 Cor.2:14 Scripture in no way will modify or change what Apostle Paul warned the Church in 2 Thess.2 about the Wicked one coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and exalt himself over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

 

[Davy]

"The natural man" IS "that man of sin, the son of perdtion" .

The "man of sin", the "son of perdition" of 2 Thess.2, is the devil himself. That is who Apostle Paul was pointing to in 2 Thess.2 coming to work miracles and lying wonders to deceive. The orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem will worship him as Messiah. Some Christian brethren who are deceived (like those who refuse to understand Paul was warning of a singular false one coming to play God), will also with the orthodox Jews, be deceived by that coming false one.

 

[Earburner]

I don't know where you are getting the doctrine that Paul was speaking in the plural about the false one in 2 Thess.2 being revealed in his time. The Scripture is not supporting such a view. The context of the "man of sin" being revealed is in the singular, and that's who Paul was referring to with "that Wicked".

So your plural doctrine idea applied to that isn't coming from the Bible manuscripts either. It's a doctrine I've heard from some before, so you didn't think it up either. All you're presenting is confusion by trying to separate Paul's phrase "that Wicked" into a plural meaning when he was speaking of the singular "man of sin" who is to come and play God in Jerusalem.

Go back to the Textus Receptus Greek for 2 Thes. ch. 2 KJV. Go look at it YOURSELF, since you are ignoring the fact, that I already did your homework for you!
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I don't feel sorry for your helplessness, if you haven't read from that which I referenced from the Textus Receptus Greek. However, because it is necessary for you to see it and learn, go to this site on bible hub
.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 Greek Text Analysis

 

[Davy]

No he didn't, and neither did the other ECFs. Please review this: ....

Better to read what Irenaeus himself actually said:

Irenaeus:
4. "But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"(1) as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Against Heresies, book 5.30.4)

So, God considers a future rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in which the sacrifices offered therein would be an official, national, Jewish rejection of the sacrifice of God's beloved Son, and a collective Jewish middle finger in the face of the Almighty...the "temple of God"? And not only considers it such, but directs His prophets and His faithful to consider it as such too? Or is the "temple of God" the church, ESPECIALLY when Paul uses the word "temple" (Gr. "naos") over and over when referring to the church?

There we go with that word fallacy operation Judaizers like to try and use against God's Word, in attempt to change the context of the Scripture. Greek 'naos' for the KJV word "temple" is the same word the Gospel uses when Jesus described the physical temple at Jerusalem.

Your doctrine on that sole word does not change it into always meaning the spiritual temple idea in Ephesians. Even with Paul's spiritual temple idea in Ephesians 2, it is still about the idea of a temple that is sacred, only it is applied in the spiritual sense there. One cannot just go slapping that connotation on every use of the word temple, for that is foolishness, and that's what you've tried to do.

Irenaeus' own words show he understood the "temple of God" in 2 Thess.2:4 as a literal physical temple in Jerusalem for the end.

 

[Earburner]

The "man of sin", the "son of perdition" of 2 Thess.2, is the devil himself. That is who Apostle Paul was pointing to in 2 Thess.2 coming to work miracles and lying wonders to deceive. The orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem will worship him as Messiah. Some Christian brethren who are deceived (like those who refuse to understand Paul was warning of a singular false one coming to play God), will also with the orthodox Jews, be deceived by that coming false one.

STOP!
Stop with the "religious chatter" of religious TERMS!
All of that generates preconceived thought in your own head, when you SPEAK IT.
I call it "religious speak" .
It conjures up in your head, mental pictures and images of what you THINK you know, but really is nothing more than what the "scholarly learned religious" TELL YOU.

 

[Davy]

Go back to the Textus Receptus Greek for 2 Thes. ch. 2 KJV. Go look at it YOURSELF, since you are ignoring the fact, that I already did your homework for you!
.
I don't feel sorry for your helplessness, if you haven't read from that which I referenced from the Textus Receptus Greek. However, because it is necessary for you to see it and learn, go to this site on bible hub
.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 Greek Text Analysis

Don't have to try and redo everything the KJV translators gave there in 2 Thess.2. It's a simple matter to follow the context, because even the context in the Greek of 2 Thess.2:9 which Jesus comes to destroy reveals Paul was speaking of a singular false one.

 

[Davy]

STOP!
Stop with the "religious chatter" of religious TERMS!
All of that generates preconceived thought in your own head, when you SPEAK IT.
I call it "religious speak" .
It conjures up in your head, mental pictures and images of what you THINK you know, but really is nothing more than what the "scholarly learned religious" TELL YOU.

You're the one doing the religious chattering, by trying to change Paul's context in 2 Thess.2 about the coming "man of sin" and "son of perdition" to a whole bunch of people, which of course is madness. And your madness is getting stronger with your out lashing each time this is shown to you!

 

[Willie T]

Better to read what Irenaeus himself actually said:

Irenaeus:
4. "But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"(1) as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Against Heresies, book 5.30.4)




There we go with that word fallacy operation Judaizers like to try and use against God's Word, in attempt to change the context of the Scripture. Greek 'naos' for the KJV word "temple" is the same word the Gospel uses when Jesus described the physical temple at Jerusalem.

Your doctrine on that sole word does not change it into always meaning the spiritual temple idea in Ephesians. Even with Paul's spiritual temple idea in Ephesians 2, it is still about the idea of a temple that is sacred, only it is applied in the spiritual sense there. One cannot just go slapping that connotation on every use of the word temple, for that is foolishness, and that's what you've tried to do.

Irenaeus' own words show he understood the "temple of God" in 2 Thess.2:4 as a literal physical temple in Jerusalem for the end.

Is this the same Irenaeus who said Jesus had a 15-year ministry, and that He died at the age of more than 40?

 

[Earburner]

Better to read what Irenaeus himself actually said:

Irenaeus:
4. "But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"(1) as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Against Heresies, book 5.30.4)




There we go with that word fallacy operation Judaizers like to try and use against God's Word, in attempt to change the context of the Scripture. Greek 'naos' for the KJV word "temple" is the same word the Gospel uses when Jesus described the physical temple at Jerusalem.

Your doctrine on that sole word does not change it into always meaning the spiritual temple idea in Ephesians. Even with Paul's spiritual temple idea in Ephesians 2, it is still about the idea of a temple that is sacred, only it is applied in the spiritual sense there. One cannot just go slapping that connotation on every use of the word temple, for that is foolishness, and that's what you've tried to do.

Irenaeus' own words show he understood the "temple of God" in 2 Thess.2:4 as a literal physical temple in Jerusalem for the end.

100% bogus and false information!
You are lost in the world of "church-ianity", a world of "scholarly learned" religious men, speaking on nothing but their own "religious terms", that they themselves generate!
Don't you yet know that all of such shall be
"bundled to be burned"??

 

[Earburner]

You're the one doing the religious chattering, by trying to change Paul's context in 2 Thess.2 about the coming "man of sin" and "son of perdition" to a whole bunch of people, which of course is madness. And your madness is getting stronger with your out lashing each time this is shown to you!

Helllooo!! I am speaking BIBLE here!
I am not the saying "THE" Antichrist!
You are.

 

[Davy]

Paul said that this great apostasy would be orchestrated by the "man of sin, the son of perdition" who would exalt himself above God and seek worship for himself. Did the papacy do that. Brother, just google the blasphemous claims the papacy makes about the pope and priests.

No, no pope has ever fulfilled that 2 Thess.2 prophecy. Reason is because no pope has ever sat in a physical temple in Jerusalem and exalted himself over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. The context is a singular Antichrist that is to work great signs and wonders, for Paul was repeating Lord Jesus' warning of Matthew 24:23-26 about a pseudo-Christ that would deceive even His very elect, if possible.

Also, even though Lord Jesus called Judas who betrayed Him as a "son of perdition", He also said Judas was a "devil", thus linking that title actually back to Satan himself (John 6:70). In 2 Thess.2 Paul wasn't speaking of Judas because Judas was already dead. Paul was pointing to the devil himself who is the real "son of perdition" simply because no flesh man (including Judas) has been already judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire. Only the devil and his angels have already been judged and sentenced so far.

 

[Davy]

Paul said this man of sin wouldn't rise until the Roman Empire was taken out of the way, and when the Caesars vacated the throne, the Bishops of Rome sat down in their place and almost destroyed the church if not for the mercy of God and His Protestant Reformation.

Paul said no such thing about the Roman Empire being taken away in 2 Thess.2. That is a doctrine from men, and not what Paul was pointing to. Paul's idea was about the false one of verse 3 & 4 being revealed in his time (2 Thess.2:6). Paul's context is about that false one being withheld until it's time for his being revealed sitting in a temple in Jerusalem.

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

That is the event Paul was pointing to. It's when Archangel Michael makes a stand in Heaven against Satan and his angels, and then Satan and his angels are cast out of Heaven, just like Revelation 12:7-9 does declare by Apostle John from Lord Jesus.

 

[Davy]

100% bogus and false information!
You are lost in the world of "church-ianity", a world of "scholarly learned" religious men, speaking on nothing but their own "religious terms", that they themselves generate!
Don't you yet know that all of such shall be
"bundled to be burned"??

I simply quoted Irenaeus from his Against Heresies writing which was against the Gnostic liars of his era.

 

[Davy]

Helllooo!! I am speaking BIBLE here!
I am not the saying "THE" Antichrist!
You are.

You are even having a problem with reading comprehension now too. I never said you were speaking of a singular Antichrist, but instead that you try to point to many people with Paul's Message in 2 Thess.2.

Paul's context in 2 Thess.2 is still about a singular false Messiah coming to Jerusalem to play God. And the idea of his exalting himself over all that is even 'called' God, or that is worshiped, is revealing he will be worshiped by all religions and faiths, which religious joining of multiple faiths is what is going on today.

 

[Earburner]

You are even having a problem with reading comprehension now too. I never said you were speaking of a singular Antichrist, but instead that you try to point to many people with Paul's Message in 2 Thess.2.

Paul's context in 2 Thess.2 is still about a singular false Messiah coming to Jerusalem to play God. And the idea of his exalting himself over all that is even 'called' God, or that is worshiped, is revealing he will be worshiped by all religions and faiths, which religious joining of multiple faiths is what is going on today.

You ARE speaking the doctrines from Hell (the bottomless pit), being this earth, Satan's prison of his endless death!
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You all need to Wake up from your deep sleep of "religious speak".
Don't you yet see that all of you are "spinning your wheels" over the foolishness of the preconceived thoughts and vain empty hopes of SCHOLARLY learned men (the tares), being generated by the mind of "THE NATURAL man", AND NOT the Mind (Spirit) of Christ??
How many more years/centuries are you going to follow their devious and pernicious thoughts/ways, and not Christ, as shown in John 16:13 and Isa. 55:8-9?
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WAKE UP! You've all been duped!!
Don't you yet know that " the natural man" IS "the man of sin, the son of perdition (destruction)??
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Listen closely to Rom. 8:9- "whosoever HATH NOT the Spirit of God/Christ IS NONE OF HIS".
Which MEANS all of such are "condemned ALREADY" (John 3:18), being destined for destruction (PERDITION) upon the Lord's Glorious return!

 

[Earburner]

No, no pope has ever fulfilled that 2 Thess.2 prophecy. Reason is because no pope has ever sat in a physical temple in Jerusalem and exalted himself over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. The context is a singular Antichrist that is to work great signs and wonders, for Paul was repeating Lord Jesus' warning of Matthew 24:23-26 about a pseudo-Christ that would deceive even His very elect, if possible.

Also, even though Lord Jesus called Judas who betrayed Him as a "son of perdition", He also said Judas was a "devil", thus linking that title actually back to Satan himself (John 6:70). In 2 Thess.2 Paul wasn't speaking of Judas because Judas was already dead. Paul was pointing to the devil himself who is the real "son of perdition" simply because no flesh man (including Judas) has been already judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire. Only the devil and his angels have already been judged and sentenced so far.

Davy,
Quite literally, you (and the Pope theorists) are so far off course, by the "religious speak" of the "scholarly learned" TARES, that it's going to take you a very long time to displace all of that error, with the SIMPLICITY of the Lord's Truth.
First and foremost, LISTEN to and then digest John 3:18
John.3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is *condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The judgment of *ETERNAL death was pronounced by God centuries ago IN ADAM!!
Now again, listen to Heb. 9[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
BUT after this the judgment:
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AND HERE IS/WAS THAT JUDGMENT:
[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Where have you been??
Ans. Listening and swallowing the "religious speak" of corrupt men, being all those who graduate from THEIR "religious schools" of "the scholarly learned", aka- " The TARES".

 

[Earburner]

I simply quoted Irenaeus from his Against Heresies writing which was against the Gnostic liars of his era.

Exactly!
A prime example of "religious speak" is your use of the term "Gnostic".
Irenaeus was just another "religious" commentator, ordained by the "scholarly learned" (a Bishop), and not necessarily by the Holy Spirit.
Have you forgotten how "all truth" is deposited within us each who believe? John 16:13.
Seek Him through His word, for HIS understanding of His OWN words!

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks for acknowledging that. Maccabees was written by the Jews in

Since Israel was centrally involved with the AoD, that Jesus spoke of in Daniel, I strongly disagree that the history of Israel was a small speck.
You have not yet learned who "the holy people" were- Dan. 8:24 or who "the host of heaven" were- Dan. 8:10.

The AOD didnt happen in Daniels day.

Heres what we know:

1) Daniel predicted a coming AOD.

2) Jesus reminded us of Daniel’s prophecy AND TOLD CHRISTIANS TO FLEE WHEN THEY SAW IT.

3) When it happened in 70 A.D., no Christisns perished in the destruction.

 

[Jay Ross]

The AOD didnt happen in Daniels day.

Heres what we know:

1) Daniel predicted a coming AOD.

2) Jesus reminded us of Daniel’s prophecy AND TOLD CHRISTIANS TO FLEE WHEN THEY SAW IT.

3) When it happened in 70 A.D., no Christisns perished in the destruction.

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD because the Jews worshipped the temple rather than entering into a right relationship with God. Many believe that rebuilding the temple will enable the Jews to restore their relationship with God, but they will not be allowed to rebuild the temple because their is a new way/process to gain redemption from God.

It was the starting point of the visitation of their iniquities upon them where they had no means of offering up a sin sacrifice because the blood of the cross changed the process for repentance 40 years earlier, but they missed that being played out before them.

I agree that the AOD didn't happen in Daniel's day.

What I do know is that the AOD will happen in our distant future when Satan, the beast and the false prophet is released from the Bottomless pit after being imprisoned for 1,000 years during the little while period before the final time of judgement.

Shalom

 

[Phoneman777]

I reject all bibles that are translated from the Westcott and Hort Greek text. I strongly support the Textus Receptus Greek text- KJV
Since all bibles are translations, it is the Greek text that spells the difference. Of all the bibles out there, the 1611-KJV Bible is the only one that does impose upon the reader, slanted religious terms or phrases.

Well, at least we agree on that!