Hermeneutics vs. "Herd-meneutics"

[ScottA]

Indeed the father is a spirit as is the Holy Spirit.

The second person of God in Jesus spirit also. But Jesus is flesh. When he appeared to Mary and the apostles he was flesh. When he comes in the second coming it will be as flesh.

At the resurrection our flesh will rejoin our spirit and be glorified flesh for eternity, just as the flesh of Christ is.

As I said, that is a gross biblical departure from the truth.
"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."
But this you believe, because you [obviously] do not understand that the resurrection of Jesus in the flesh was [only] proof of his victory over death, and not that body that ascended, which was spirit just as the Father is spirit. This is what is meant by “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Not that the flesh should profit, but rather the spirit of God. "The flesh profits nothing."

 

[ScottA]

Until one looks at Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2 and Matthew 23:39. Yeshua made is quite clear that He would return to His place and not come back UNTIL (the operative word here) collective Jacob (Judah and Israel) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for His return and the reference is to the Messianic Psalms 118, which is a call for Messiah when the nations are surrounding Israel and Yeshua specifically refers to verse 26.

So one can do the spiritualizing gig all that want regarding Yeshua and deny a physical return, but He sure had that in mind when He spoke in Hosea and Matthew. So now one has to decide if Yeshua was a liar when He stated those things or was just having some fun at everyone's expense.

And the Davidic Covenant has yet to be realized. Yeshua has yet to physically reign over Jerusalem and the land in the authority of King David's lineage. 2 Samuel 7. That is an unconditional covenant YHVH made with David that no one on this planet can ever abrogate. It was the promise of YHVH. And the previous verses above set the conditions of Yeshua's coming again to accomplish that.

Probably why so many folks are ready to jump on the of "there are no physical Jews anymore" mantra so they can do a theology end run around inconvenient passages like Hosea 5-6 and Matthew 23. Oh well, Goebbels said that if you tell a lie big enough and repeat it often, eventually it will be perceived as the truth.

When one starts down a spiritualizing of scripture, one almost has to negotiate a minefield of allegorizing scripture or ignoring scripture altogether to the point where things are such a convoluted mess that it is unrecognizable. It becomes a maze that becomes almost a hermeneutics gymnastic event with all sorts of wild twists and turns.

And it really distorts the simple, pure Gospel of Yeshua.

But some folks just have a fun time doing that. I'll stick with the Golden Rule of Hermeneutics... when the plain sense of a scripture passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one end up with nonsense.

He was not a liar, his words were spirit, just as he said. And "the spiritualizing gig"...is God's gig. Some/many reject him. Apparently, you are one who does.

 

[ScottA]

Well you have missed the bulk of the prophetic picture. If the Second Coming was not a physical bodily return of Christ "with power and great glory", then every eye on the face of the earth could not see Him, and then weep and wail and mourn because the wrath of the Lamb has come:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:15-17)

Those words are spirit, just as he said.

It is physically impossible for "every eye" to see unless in spirit.

God also lead Israel "in a cloud by day"...but he is spirit.

Men have been "hiding" in the world from God throughout all of time, since Adam. So?

The end does come, and indeed, "who shall stand?" So?

Stop reading the words as the world does.

 

[Dave L]

Accusations are easy. Our God operates in the physical realm as well (think Incarnation). BTW, thanks for not answering my questions. I'll just take it you are not able.

If you can produce one fragment of scripture depicting a future physical kingdom from the gospels or epistles, you can prove that you are not adding to the book of Revelation. Until then you are.

 

[Dave L]

And none of that negates that there is a physical Hebrew people that must collectively acknowledge the offense of rejecting Yeshua, turn to Him, and call for His return... Before He will return.

You are forcing a spiritual application onto a physical identity. Is is allegory applied in violation of the Golden Rule of Hermeneutics.

Your application leads to all sorts of problems. Again, if the church is now Israel, and the church is only made up of the redeemed, then why would the church need to acknowledge the offense of rejecting Yeshua before He will return? Isn’t it a measure of redemption that one accept Yeshua? Why would those who are redeemed by Yeshua be the ones guilty of rejecting Yeshua?

And yet, the scripture is very clear that Israel (both Judah and Israel) must acknowledge the offense of rejecting Yeshua and call on Him to return before He will.

The only way to get out of that quagmire is to ignore or allegorize even more scripture. A very dangerous exercise that can become a never ending downward spiral that can lead to a maze that no one can ever navigate. And the most dangerous part of all.... risk distortion of the Gospel to a point where souls are lost.

No thanks. I will never be able to accept your analysis of these things.

Can you pass this simple bible history test?

Circumcision made one the covenant seed of Abraham. True or false?

God told Abraham that any not circumcised were to be cut off. True or false?

Abraham's seed consisted of over 300 foreigners and their families when God instituted circumcision. True or False?

Ishmael was Abraham's only blood relative at the time. True or False?

Even though circumcised,Ishmael became a gentile and father of the Edomites after being cut off from the group. True or False?

So circumcision and inclusion in the group of the circumcised made one Abraham's physical seed. True or False?

Moses continued the rite of circumcision as given to Abraham. True or False?

Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross ending physical membership in Abraham's seed. True or False?

Paul says Jesus is Abraham's seed along with those who believe in him. True or False?

Abraham's physical seed were known as Hebrews, and the children of Israel in Egypt. True or False?

When Israel left Egypt, they were a mixed multitude of family and foreigners, all circumcised and called Israel. True or False?

 

[prism]

If you can produce one fragment of scripture depicting a future physical kingdom from the gospels or epistles, you can prove that you are not adding to the book of Revelation. Until then you are.

There's your problem, you have castrated 2/3 of the Bible...

Romans 15:4 NKJV
[4] For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

2 Timothy 3:16 NKJV
[16] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

 

[Dave L]

There's your problem, you have castrated 2/3 of the Bible...

Romans 15:4 NKJV
[4] For B]whatever things were written before [/B]were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

2 Timothy 3:16 NKJV
[16] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

If you understand Jewish and Israeli history in the bible, it all makes sense. Study the role of "Circumcision" in the bible, it will prove what I'm saying.

 

[prism]

If you understand Jewish and Israeli history in the bible, it all makes sense. Study the role of "Circumcision" in the bible, it will prove what I'm saying.

Yes, certain rites and rituals of the Mosaic Covenant have been superceded by the New Covenant, but the unconditional promises of the Prophets after the manner of the Abrahamic Covenant have not been superceded.

Romans 11:28-29 NKJV
[28] Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, certain rites and rituals of the Mosaic Covenant have been superceded by the New Covenant, but the unconditional promises of the Prophets after the manner of the Abrahamic Covenant have not been superceded.

Romans 11:28-29 NKJV
[28] Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

All of the promises are YES in Jesus only.

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

 

[CoreIssue]

As I said, that is a gross biblical departure from the truth.
"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."
But this you believe, because you [obviously] do not understand that the resurrection of Jesus in the flesh was [only] proof of his victory over death, and not that body that ascended, which was spirit just as the Father is spirit. This is what is meant by “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Not that the flesh should profit, but rather the spirit of God. "The flesh profits nothing."

Then you deny the bodily resurrection of the saints and glorification.

 

[ScottA]

Then you deny the bodily resurrection of the saints and glorification.

No...this is the "bodily resurrection." Just as Christ was both born and died in the world, so do we. With Christ, "It is finished.", just as it is for those of us "in Christ."

As for "glorification", that is His ascension, and like Him, that body that dies is not "that body that shall be."

 

[CoreIssue]

No...this is the "bodily resurrection." Just as Christ was both born and died in the world, so do we. With Christ, "It is finished.", just as it is for those of us "in Christ."

As for "glorification", that is His ascension, and like Him, that body that dies is not "that body that shall be."

Clear as mud.

 

[ScottA]

Clear as mud.

Granted, it has been called a mystery...but this is scriptural, the tongue of scripture made clear by the Holy Spirit as promised.

 

[CoreIssue]

Granted, it has been called a mystery...but this is scriptural, the tongue of scripture made clear by the Holy Spirit as promised.

Not what you said.

 

[ScottA]

Not what you said.

Whether or not you believe what I said, does not change the fact that it is the truth of scripture.

Yet, here you are acting as if you know all truth, and yet these things have evaded you. Such is the folly of history and of men, and those who killed the prophets that were sent to them. Why to you speak as if you have all truth, when clearly, you do not?

 

[CoreIssue]

Whether or not you believe what I said, does not change the fact that it is the truth of scripture.

Yet, here you are acting as if you know all truth, and yet these things have evaded you. Such is the folly of history and of men, and those who killed the prophets that were sent to them. Why to you speak as if you have all truth, when clearly, you do not?

What you are claiming is not in the Bible.

If everything is spiritual then who is eating the fruit and drinking the water in the new Jerusalem?

 

[prism]

All of the promises are YES in Jesus only.

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

Is not Jesus eternal? Didn't Abraham see Jesus' Day?
The promises given to Abraham were as 'yea and amen' as they are to us.

John 8:56 NKJV
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

 

[Dave L]

Is not Jesus eternal? Didn't Abraham see Jesus' Day?
The promises given to Abraham were as 'yea and amen' as they are to us.

John 8:56 NKJV
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Paul says ALL the promises are YES in Christ whom the unbelieving Jews hate and rejected. How can the promises apply to them?

 

[ScottA]

What you are claiming is not in the Bible.

If everything is spiritual then who is eating the fruit and drinking the water in the new Jerusalem?

That, obviously, is conjecture. You are making a bold statement and accusation as if fact, and yet at the same time asking a question, to which you do not have the answer.

But to answer, let me ask you: If Jesus is that true manna come down from heaven - how will you eat of it?

 

[prism]

Paul says ALL the promises are YES in Christ whom the unbelieving Jews hate and rejected. How can the promises apply to them?

No one said the promises applied to unbelieving Jews. But there are promises to believing OT Jews that weren't given to the Church (made up of believing Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:15)), hence the distinction between the Church and Israel. There were land promises to the believing OT Jews that weren't given to the Church and promises to the Church not given to Israel,but in both cases those promises are yea and amen.