Why Christians Disagree

[ScottA]

I have evidence that big foot is real. I have numerous pictures, footprints, testimonies of seeing him. Do you believe he is real? Probably not just like me because the evidence is not credible. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to believe but on the credibility of the evidence.

One analogy at a time.

I do not "believe" in bigfoot, because I have nothing to go on but rumor. You on the other hand have the world, the universe, the magic of life, an unending ribbon of witness testimonies spanning all of time adding their part in collaboration without complete knowledge of each other like one letter in a crossword puzzle at a time. And yes, what I have I do not "believe" but "know", which indeed requires faith, because the world also offers what is untrue in a very convincing way. In the world there is darkness and light. I choose to walk in the light, in optimism rather than pessimism.

 

[Stranger]

OK

But your reason for believing he is real is because you believe in him. I don't see the difference.

I agree.

The difference is that I believe because God has given it to me to believe. You, and other non-believers just like you, always like to mock the Christians faith. Liken it to silliness and belief in santa clause or whatever. And if it were of ourselves, it would be silliness. But it is not, and we know it.

Of course you can't see the difference. I don't expect you to.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Not proof just reasonable evidence.

I have never claimed there is no god. most scientists do not either. I will believe when credible evidence is shown.

There is no difference. Wanting evidence is wanting proof.

Really? So the Christian is worshiping God?

Actually that is a standard statement of atheists. " I will believe when credible evidence is shown". But, actually that is a lie. If Jesus Christ appeared before you, you wouldn't believe. Evidence and proof is just a facade for not wanting anything to do with God. You would find a reason to not believe.

Stranger

 

[Harvest 1874]

It sounds to me, as "The Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend". Ex 33:11..I believe is showing us that Moses went in freely and stood before the Mercy Seat and spoke with God face to face...then it says Moses went back to the camp...but Joshua stayed at the Tabernacle ( probs in the Holy Place worshiping)

If you follow the narrative closely in this instance you will note that this statement precedes the building of the typical Tabernacle with its two adjoining chambers the holy and most holy and took place in Moses’ personal tent (also referred to as the tabernacle or “tent of meeting”, See Verse 7). Likewise Moses could not have stood before the Mercy Seat because the Ark of the Covenant had not yet been built.

Moses was forty days and forty nights on Mount Sinai receiving the commandments of God during this time God showed him the pattern of the Tabernacle and gave instructions for constructing it (Exodus Chapters 25–31). Subsequently after having descended he told the Israelites what he had seen and the Lord’s wish that they offer offerings to the Lord for its construction.

The construction of the materials which would compose the Tabernacle (its curtains, post, sockets and etc.) took place first (as outlined in Chapter 36), followed by the construction of the Ark of the Covenant (Chapter 37), as well as the other pieces of furnishings including the Brazen Altar and Laver for the courtyard, then followed the fashioning of the materials use in the courtyard itself (its curtains, post, sockets, ropes and pins). The Tabernacle was erected on the first day of the first month (Exod 40:1) of the second year (see Verse 17), that is, on the first of Abib (Nisan) in the second year.

How do you see Moses speaking 'face to face' in the Tabernacle, if not within the Holy of Holies where God had said ..Ex 25:22 "And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel."

Before we address the “face to face” issue I must apologize for the statement I made in my last post where I stated, “Moses never entered the Tabernacle proper at all, period”, you were correct Moses was indeed permitted to enter the Tabernacle proper on various occasions after its construction.

For the first 39 years of the Tabernacle, both Aaron and Moses had access to the Most Holy. Moses went into the structure to commune with God—except on rare occasions when a different procedure was used.” Whether or not Moses was required to follow the same procedures as the High Priest before entering the Most Holy is not stated. Following the death of Moses there are no more instances where anyone other than the High Priest was permitted entry into the Most Holy. In fact the only other instance where anyone other than a priest entered the Tabernacle was in the case of King David when he entered the holy and partook of the show-bread.

I have two posts which I believe will aid in understanding the true intent or meaning behind the phrase “face to face”, which I will post on my blog rather than here as they are not necessarily related to the subject of this thread. One is entitled, “Servants, Friends, Sons”, the other “An Interesting Question”.

 

[Taken]

Why Christians Disagree <--- OP

Not a Secret.

Because NOT ALL persons being called or calling themselves Christians are:

Saved and Born Again.

And Because OF the Saved and Born Again;

NOT ALL are at the same Distance (maturity),
Of KNOWLEDGE,
Of EFFORT,
of STUDY,
of PRACTICE,
of UNDERSTANDING.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Vince]

The difference is that I believe because God has given it to me to believe.

I just think that is circular and not a good reason to believe. But we disagree.

You, and other non-believers just like you, always like to mock the Christians faith. Liken it to silliness and belief in santa clause or whatever. And if it were of ourselves, it would be silliness. But it is not, and we know it.

I have never said any of these things here.

Of course you can't see the difference. I don't expect you to.

Stranger

And this is what inoculates some Christians against thinking about non believers points. If a non believer makes an argument against belief the believer can just say they don't understand because they don't have the spirit to understand.

 

[Vince]

There is no difference. Wanting evidence is wanting proof.

Nope. Evidence does not prove anything. Evidence leads to a belief that something is true. It must be evaluated. I believe my wife loves me because of a mountain of evidence that says she does. I cannot prove she loves me, I cannot know 100% that she does. In any court case evidence for and against is presented and a jury needs to evaluate the evidence to see if it is most likely true or not.

Really? So the Christian is worshiping God?

Actually that is a standard statement of atheists. " I will believe when credible evidence is shown". But, actually that is a lie. If Jesus Christ appeared before you, you wouldn't believe. Evidence and proof is just a facade for not wanting anything to do with God. You would find a reason to not believe.

Stranger

This is a standard mistake of theists. They claim to know what non believers are thinking. You don't. It just makes you look arrogant.

 

[ScottA]

If a non believer makes an argument against belief the believer can just say they don't understand because they don't have the spirit to understand.

What you are missing...that elephant in the room...is, that spirit or lack of spirit is the evidence you deny, even though you yourself see there is a difference.

We could just as easily be telling you that the country of Turkey or planet Venus is real. But unless you are willing or able to go there...you yourself are the limiting factor.

If you are willing and able, the evidence is just as we have told you. Your move.

 

[Vince]

What you are missing...that elephant in the room...is, that spirit or lack of spirit is the evidence you deny, even though you yourself see there is a difference.

We could just as easily be telling you that the country of Turkey or planet Venus is real. But unless you are willing or able to go there...you yourself are the limiting factor.

If you are willing and able, the evidence is just as we have told you. Your move.

I don't have to go to Venus to know it is there. I can see it at night, we can predict its movements, we have pictures from space of the planet, there is mountains of evidence that it exists. Where is this for God?

 

[ScottA]

I don't have to go to Venus to know it is there. I can see it at night, we can predict its movements, we have pictures from space of the planet, there is mountains of evidence that it exists. Where is this for God?

You are not being honest.

Did you do any of the original research that established the existence of Venus as fact? ...You simply "believed" it. Which does not make you a skeptic in search of truth, it makes you a fraud.

And yes, mountains are evidence of God. Shessh!

 

[Stranger]

I just think that is circular and not a good reason to believe. But we disagree.

I have never said any of these things here.

And this is what inoculates some Christians against thinking about non believers points. If a non believer makes an argument against belief the believer can just say they don't understand because they don't have the spirit to understand.

It doesn't matter that it is circular. That is the way it is. That it is circular means it is fool proof. No one gets there by any other way. It is the reason the believer believes. The believer cannot stop being a believer. God has given it to him to believe. If I am tortured to recant, and then recant, I am still a believer. I just lied about it.

Oh, you have never mocked the Christian and Christianity. You mock it now by mocking the Scriptures which are the Word of God. You mock it now by mocking the faith that is required to be a Christian. Your whole reason for being here is a mockery.

Non believers have no points. They don't believe. That is the only point. If your eyes haven't been opened, it stops there.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Nope. Evidence does not prove anything. Evidence leads to a belief that something is true. It must be evaluated. I believe my wife loves me because of a mountain of evidence that says she does. I cannot prove she loves me, I cannot know 100% that she does. In any court case evidence for and against is presented and a jury needs to evaluate the evidence to see if it is most likely true or not.

This is a standard mistake of theists. They claim to know what non believers are thinking. You don't. It just makes you look arrogant.

Yup. Evidence and proof are the same thing. You are requiring evidence, you are requiring proof. Apparently no amount of evidence proves to you anything. Such is the reasoning of the atheist. He calls and demands proof, yet there is never enough to persuade. This is what I told you earlier. Your cry for evidence and proof is a facade. You want nothing to do with God. If God appeared before you, you would explain Him away. After all, you just can't be 100% sure.

But the believer in Christ is 100% sure. Yes, 100%. We know God, and Jesus Christ.

I know what atheists are thinking. If it makes me look arrogant, big deal. Should I care? Funny how atheists like to say the Christian can't know, even though we do know. Yet they don't perceive themselves as arrogant. Which means they are not only arrogant, but hypocrites.

And, you didn't answer my question. Is the Christian worshiping God?

Stranger

 

[Vince]

You are not being honest.

Did you do any of the original research that established the existence of Venus as fact? ...You simply "believed" it. Which does not make you a skeptic in search of truth, it makes you a fraud.

I have an education. Anyone in elementary school has the evidence to believe that Venus exists. I gave the evidence before. Of course I have not been there but I have seen it with my own eyes through a telescope. Anyone can see it without a telescope at different times. I never claimed I know 100% that Venus exists but the evidence is overwhelming. How big of a conspiracy would there need to be to keep this a secret. Its not plausible at all.

And yes, mountains are evidence of God. Shessh!

Maybe but not sufficient evidence. There is more evidence that they formed by natural means. Much more.

 

[Vince]

It doesn't matter that it is circular. That is the way it is. That it is circular means it is fool proof.

No, it means it is illogical. Does not follow logical reasoning. Something doesn't exist because you believe it does. It exists or not whether you believe it or not.

No one gets there by any other way. It is the reason the believer believes. The believer cannot stop being a believer. God has given it to him to believe. If I am tortured to recant, and then recant, I am still a believer. I just lied about it.

I stopped believing. But I guess you will call me a liar again.

Oh, you have never mocked the Christian and Christianity. You mock it now by mocking the Scriptures which are the Word of God. You mock it now by mocking the faith that is required to be a Christian. Your whole reason for being here is a mockery.

I never have mocked Christianity here. I have simply asked for evidence. You specifically said that I said that Christianity is a mental illness which I never said.

Non believers have no points. They don't believe. That is the only point. If your eyes haven't been opened, it stops there.

Stranger

You claim here that someones eyes must be opened by someone else, God? Is so then blame god and not me for not opening my eyes?

 

[Vince]

Yup. Evidence and proof are the same thing. You are requiring evidence, you are requiring proof.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Proof:evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

They are not the same thing.

Apparently no amount of evidence proves to you anything. Such is the reasoning of the atheist. He calls and demands proof, yet there is never enough to persuade.

I never demanded proof, only sufficient evidence. Your being untruthful here.

This is what I told you earlier. Your cry for evidence and proof is a facade. You want nothing to do with God. If God appeared before you, you would explain Him away. After all, you just can't be 100% sure.

But the believer in Christ is 100% sure. Yes, 100%. We know God, and Jesus Christ.

Then you lack faith and therefore cannot please god as the bible says.

I know what atheists are thinking. If it makes me look arrogant, big deal. Should I care? Funny how atheists like to say the Christian can't know, even though we do know. Yet they don't perceive themselves as arrogant. Which means they are not only arrogant, but hypocrites.

I never said you cannot know. You just cannot provide evidence to others that you do know.

And, you didn't answer my question. Is the Christian worshiping God?

If god exists, I guess they are.

 

[ScottA]

I have an education. Anyone in elementary school has the evidence to believe that Venus exists. I gave the evidence before. Of course I have not been there but I have seen it with my own eyes through a telescope. Anyone can see it without a telescope at different times. I never claimed I know 100% that Venus exists but the evidence is overwhelming. How big of a conspiracy would there need to be to keep this a secret. Its not plausible at all.

Maybe but not sufficient evidence. There is more evidence that they formed by natural means. Much more.

Your explanation of Venus makes your claim of insufficient evidence of God void.

As I said before, you have believed worldly things, but do not extend the same to God.

Your loss.

 

[Stranger]

No, it means it is illogical. Does not follow logical reasoning. Something doesn't exist because you believe it does. It exists or not whether you believe it or not.

I stopped believing. But I guess you will call me a liar again.

I never have mocked Christianity here. I have simply asked for evidence. You specifically said that I said that Christianity is a mental illness which I never said.

You claim here that someones eyes must be opened by someone else, God? Is so then blame god and not me for not opening my eyes?

Illogical to you. Not to God or to His people. Yes, I know. And I know God exists, and I know Jesus Christ is God the Son and Saviour.

A believer doesn't stop believing. It is not in his power to do so. So, yes, that would make you a liar. Ive listened to atheists for years whine how they used to believe but then quit as they saw the error of their ways.

Yes you mock Christ, Christianity, and Christians. Your whole purpose is to cast doubt upon the Christians faith because of the lack of your evidence and proof.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Proof:evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

They are not the same thing.

I never demanded proof, only sufficient evidence. Your being untruthful here.

Then you lack faith and therefore cannot please god as the bible says.

I never said you cannot know. You just cannot provide evidence to others that you do know.

If god exists, I guess they are.

Wanting evidence is wanting proof. But, neither your evidence or proof leads you anywhere. You already said you can't know.

Why do I lack faith? I believe in God and Jesus Christ. I know God and Jesus Christ. Where is the lack of faith? Give me the verse if you want to quote the Bible. I know the verse, but you're the one saying it.

I'm not interested in providing evidence to others. And, I am not required to. I simply declare Jesus Christ to all.

You only guess your wife loves you also.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

The difference is that I believe because God has given it to me to believe. You, and other non-believers just like you, always like to mock the Christians faith. Liken it to silliness and belief in santa clause or whatever. And if it were of ourselves, it would be silliness. But it is not, and we know it.

Of course you can't see the difference. I don't expect you to.

Stranger

1Cor 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

1 Cor 3:19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness."

 

[Stranger]

1Cor 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

1 Cor 3:19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness."

Good verses sister.

Stranger