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bbyrd009

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We really do have a testimony, but you are unable to appreciate it because you cannot move away from the starting gate.
Imo that reflects more on the testimonies than the reception, and Vince is within his rights to test, and keep what is "good." And he does not need to, and even should not accept anyone else's unsupported "testimony," which btw we have completely trashed the meaning of now anyway.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Lexicon: But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
And below, as soon as I dig it up, is an illustration of what happens when we don't maybe
 
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bbyrd009

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In 1676 an anomaly in the orbit of Io, Jupiter's innermost moon, led the astronomer Ole Roemer to make a very specific prediction. Io would appear from behind Jupiter at 5:37 pm on November 9, 1676, he said--and that would prove light travels with a finite speed. Roemer's mentor, Jean-Dominique Cassini, head of the Paris Observatory, rubbished the idea; light spread instantaneously, he said. His beliefs led him to a different prediction. According to Cassini, it would be 5:27 when Io appeared.

Io appeared at 5:37 and 49 seconds. On hearing of this, Cassini announced that the facts fit with the story he had presented. Although Cassini had made his (erroneous) prediction at a public gathering of scientists, not one of them demurred when he denied it; they all backed him up. Roemer had to wait fifty years to be vindicated; only after Cassini had died did scientists accept that the speed of light was finite.
https://books.google.com/books?id=oP4AU5ACcU0C&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=In+1676+an+anomaly+in+the+orbit+of+Io,+Jupiter%27s+innermost+moon,&source=bl&ots=5Y-jeFwhU-&sig=EBRVx6_x_hQeRS0OzGmbD34Pw1M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm1d2xucfTAhWMNSYKHeuDCx0Q6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=In%201676%20an%20anomaly%20in%20the%20orbit%20of%20Io%2C%20Jupiter's%20innermost%20moon%2C&f=false

wherein our more recent knowledge about the speed of light must needs be disregarded, but hopefully the point will be evident.
 

amadeus

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Imo that reflects more on the testimonies than the reception, and Vince is within his rights to test, and keep what is "good." And he does not need to, and even should not accept anyone else's unsupported "testimony," which btw we have completely trashed the meaning of now anyway.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Lexicon: But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
And below, as soon as I dig it up, is an illustration of what happens when we don't maybe
When a person is really hungry and thirsty for God and the things of God then he will be receptive and "hear" the real testimony of a person. But... a little interest or curiosity or even a scientific attraction is not enough. Unlike some I do not want to or try to throw people into a place of never ending torment, but simply death at the end is what I see. Death in what I see in the scriptures is simply nothingness. I feel no more. I see not more. I hear no more. I expect no more.

Annihilationist is what some want to call me. Some people will get some 'good' from their time here and then go on to nothing. Some will suffer a bit more or even greatly. I don't press people to go for that, but for some, not being really hungry and thirsty as per Matt 5:6 effectively get that which they really ask for...

The Pharisees here received what they were working for:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:5

People will have their reward while they are still here. For some it may be enough... ???
 

Harvest 1874

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I believe that what Jesus did at redemption , was for ALL man.
I believe all will be saved...and " every man in his own order".
By scripture ( the Tabernacle Pattern) in the kingdom all men will not be equal. We have all Israel , we the priest who served in the outer court at the altar offering the blood of lambs. We have the holy Place, and those who served with the shew bread, and candle stick.. We have the Holy Of Holies...where only Arran went , with blood one a year, and Moses went to talk face to face with God before the Mercy seat.

Sorry I forgot I was going to respond to some more of your comment, but I got side-tracked on other projects.

Now although the text cited, “every man in his own order” (1 Cor 15:23) pertains more specifically to the order in which the resurrection will progress it is nevertheless true that the Tabernacle picture distinguishes between the final reward of each of those depicted in the picture, viz. the high priest, the under-priest, the Levites and the people.

Nice to see you have been studying the Tabernacle, many believers disregard the Tabernacle imagining it to be something only pertaining to the Jewish age and to the typical ceremonies and sacrifices, but as the Apostle Paul so states it is much more than this, it is a shadow (a picture or type) of the heavenly things (Heb 10:1), the Divine Plan (the Great Anti-typical Day of Atonement), and as such depicts not only the call of the body of Christ to sacrifice and suffer with Christ, but how precisely they are selected and sealed. It likewise depicts the eventual blessings of the whole world when the Church has finished its share in the Sin Offering and has been glorified.

Nevertheless we feel we should clarify something you stated in your remarks for the sake of those not so familiar with the Tabernacle picture.

There was only one High Priest selected at a time (remaining so until his death), the High Priest was the only one permitted to inter theMost Holy” (the second chamber in the Tabernacle proper), and this only once a year on the typical Day of Atonement. The High Priest primarily typifies our Lord, and while our Lord Jesus personally is the Chief Priest to the under priesthood, the Gospel Church, “his body”, yet in the more full and complete sense he is the Head and we are the members of the body of the world’s High Priest.

It is your suggestion that Moses entered the typical Tabernacle that is in question and needs clarification.

Moses never entered the Tabernacle proper at all, period. Only the High Priest was permitted entry and only after performing all the necessary functions required. Now I believe what you were referring to is found in Exodus 33:7-9, where it states:

Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle (tent) of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the Lord went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp. So it was, whenever Moses went out to the tabernacle, that all the people rose, and each man stood at his tent door and watched Moses until he had gone into the tabernacle. And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.”

This however was not the Tabernacle of Moses (the typical Tabernacle with its courtyard, holy and most holy), but rather Moses’ personal tent. Although Moses had gotten the plans for the structure it had not yet been built. The proof is that this “tent of meeting” (literal Hebrew) was located outside the camp, whereas the subsequent Tabernacle, the typical Tabernacle was located in the center of the camp.

Earlier this “tabernacle” tent (Moses’ tent) might have been closer to the camp, but to show his disapproval for the golden calf, Moses pitched his tent farther away. Everyone who sought the Lord went out to the tent of meeting outside the camp. This was a cruder and simpler “tabernacle.”

Anyways I simply wanted to help you see this for your own personal studies. Lord bless
 
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Helen

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Sorry I forgot I was going to respond to some more of your comment, but I got side-tracked on other projects.

Now although the text cited, “every man in his own order” (1 Cor 15:23) pertains more specifically to the order in which the resurrection will progress it is nevertheless true that the Tabernacle picture distinguishes between the final reward of each of those depicted in the picture, viz. the high priest, the under-priest, the Levites and the people.

Nice to see you have been studying the Tabernacle, many believers disregard the Tabernacle imagining it to be something only pertaining to the Jewish age and to the typical ceremonies and sacrifices, but as the Apostle Paul so states it is much more than this, it is a shadow (a picture or type) of the heavenly things (Heb 10:1), the Divine Plan (the Great Anti-typical Day of Atonement), and as such depicts not only the call of the body of Christ to sacrifice and suffer with Christ, but how precisely they are selected and sealed. It likewise depicts the eventual blessings of the whole world when the Church has finished its share in the Sin Offering and has been glorified.

Nevertheless we feel we should clarify something you stated in your remarks for the sake of those not so familiar with the Tabernacle picture.

There was only one High Priest selected at a time (remaining so until his death), the High Priest was the only one permitted to inter theMost Holy” (the second chamber in the Tabernacle proper), and this only once a year on the typical Day of Atonement. The High Priest primarily typifies our Lord, and while our Lord Jesus personally is the Chief Priest to the under priesthood, the Gospel Church, “his body”, yet in the more full and complete sense he is the Head and we are the members of the body of the world’s High Priest.

It is your suggestion that Moses entered the typical Tabernacle that is in question and needs clarification.

Moses never entered the Tabernacle proper at all, period. Only the High Priest was permitted entry and only after performing all the necessary functions required. Now I believe what you were referring to is found in Exodus 33:7-9, where it states:

Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle (tent) of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the Lord went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp. So it was, whenever Moses went out to the tabernacle, that all the people rose, and each man stood at his tent door and watched Moses until he had gone into the tabernacle. And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.”

This however was not the Tabernacle of Moses (the typical Tabernacle with its courtyard, holy and most holy), but rather Moses’ personal tent. Although Moses had gotten the plans for the structure it had not yet been built. The proof is that this “tent of meeting” (literal Hebrew) was located outside the camp, whereas the subsequent Tabernacle, the typical Tabernacle was in located in the center of the camp.

Earlier this “tabernacle” tent (Moses’ tent) might have been closer to the camp, but to show his disapproval for the golden calf, Moses pitched his tent farther away. Everyone who sought the Lord went out to the tent of meeting outside the camp. This was a cruder and simpler “tabernacle.”

Anyways I simply wanted to help you see this for your own personal studies. Lord bless

Thank you for your lovely response. Amen!

And yes, you are right...that was the verses I was thinking about.
It sounds to me, as "The Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend". Ex 33:11..I believe is showing us that Moses went in freely and stood before the Mercy Seat and spoke with God face to face...then it says Moses went back to the camp...but Joshua stayed at the Tabernacle ( probs in the Holy Place worshiping)

How do you see Moses speaking 'face to face' in the Tabernacle, if not within the Holy of Holies where God had said ..Ex 25:22 "And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel." Interesting :)
.....download.jpg

Thank you...and many blessings to you...
 

Vince

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The evidence is not for you. It is for the believer. It doesn't matter if you disagree or not. As I said, I don't care how circular it is.
OK

I didn't say God is real because I believe in Him. I said God is real and He has given me the faith to believe in Him.
But your reason for believing he is real is because you believe in him. I don't see the difference.

God is real or He isn't. The faith of the believer does not affect it. And your lack of faith does not affect it.

Stranger
I agree.
 

Vince

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You have been asking for evidence and proof throughout this thread.
Not proof just reasonable evidence.

I have believed in God and Christ because He is true. Faith in God and Christ is not comparable to your faith that there is no God. It is not comparable to the scientist's faith who claims there is no God because he can't prove it. The Christians faith is a miraculous thing.
I have never claimed there is no god. most scientists do not either. I will believe when credible evidence is shown.
 

Vince

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And there is the crux of the problem. Not us, you.
I never said you were the problem.

The evidence...is that we have eternally more because it is sufficient.
Not everyone evaluates evidence the same. As I said before that is why we have hung juries. It is great if you have decided there is enough evidence. I simply have not decided it is sufficient. We don't decide to believe something either we do or we don't. Can't I blame you for not believing in Allah? Not believing in Allah is your problem.[/QUOTE]
The difference is, I do not "believe", but "know."[/quote]Then you don't have faith, you have direct knowledge and you cannot please god.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Heb 11:16 NIV

Still, what you consider sufficient evidence has obviously caused you to put up a wall between you and knowing the truth. Yet, it has no bearing on anything but you. The truth exists with or without you finding the evidence sufficient. It's your loss, and your doing.
I have evidence that big foot is real. I have numerous pictures, footprints, testimonies of seeing him. Do you believe he is real? Probably not just like me because the evidence is not credible. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to believe but on the credibility of the evidence.
 
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Vince

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The point is...you are simply being selective with what you will and will not believed. You just said it, there are things you cannot know are 100% true, but you believe them. But when presented with evidence of the existence of God, you selectively decide it is not sufficient...even after it has been explained to you. So, you are not convinced. Fine. But then, that too has been explained.
The difference is that I can believe in things I cannot see if the evidence is credible. You don't get to decide what is credible evidence. Like I said before I have evidence that big foot exists, what if I told you that I provided sufficient evidence and that it is you who just won't believe big foot exists. You are the problem. This is what you are doing to me.

So, you prove what I told you already: You are incapable of processing the evidence. That is completely different than it not being sufficient.
See above.

Example: someone could claim there is not sufficient evidence for quantum mechanics, simply because it is over their head and therefore they do not accept it, and will not take someone else's word for it, etc.. But things being over your head...is not a defense...it's evidence of individual inability.
Then that is gods problem if having faith is too complicated for me to understand. Didn't he make me this stupid?

That is the message you are parading here. As if to say, "You can't show me anything I can understand!" You may as well go to the math department of a major university and look for evidence of quantum mechanics, but not allow for a mathematical explanation...because you yourself consider it to be insufficient.
This is ridiculous.

I say again: You are not the measure of what is sufficient evidence.
Yes I am, and you are too. If I am not then you are not and anyone can tell you to believe in something that is not real. Big foot exists you just don't want to believe.
 
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Vince

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Disagree.



Do you choose to love....
or do you love Because?

Glory to God,
Taken
I do not choose to love. I can choose to act like I love someone but I can't make myself love anyone. We should all choose to be kind and loving toward others but that is different than actually loving someone.
 

Vince

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No, what you want is proof. You are making the choice as to what is"sufficient". Other people believe who have never seen the environment in which they live, never heard a bird chirping, and cannot ask the questions you are asking. Sufficient evidence is entirely subjective... What evidence are you actually looking for?
I am not looking for proof. God would know what evidence I would need. So if he wants to draw me near to him as the bible says then he would know.
 

Vince

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Which is why it seldom fruitful to seriously even discuss it. Where is our starting point?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

For you it may appear to be starting with nothing and coming out with something. It is what it is as God is what He is. We really do have a testimony, but you are unable to appreciate it because you cannot move away from the starting gate.
I have done this, believe it or not.
 

amadeus

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I have done this, believe it or not.
If you did... you stopped because you were unable to see or to hear what you had decided you should be seeing and hearing. We cannot quit just because things are not appearing to us as we believe they should. You either never really had a vision from God on these things...or you lost the love for truth which you had and are now in delusion!

"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Prov 29:18

The vision is God's but some have come to see it at least as through a glass darkly [See I Cor 13:12]

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thess 2:10-12