Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.
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In fact, Enoch, there were remnants of all the Tribes living in Israel at the time of Jesus (and maybe even today?) as has been pointed out by someone here. When the Ten Northern Tribes fell into idolatry, many of the faithful of Israel set off for Judah and Jerusalem. Presumably those descendants carried forward (but were likely blended into Judah for all practical purposes). However, Saul/Paul understood that his ancestors were from the tribe of Benjamin.
Still don't know what you are talking about--I guess I'll have to go back and check--do you have the number of the post?
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
No biggie. I said something right behind me you said the same thing to me.
So we are good.
You accused me of being a false prophet and deceiver -- prove it.
And now we're at the point where accusations are flying off the handle towards one another...
Not "we" --Dave L , it's the attempt at silencing those who disagree with him and believe in the rapture & the tribulation. It's bearing false witness.
I am not certain what it is you want, but I move ahead with what I see...
I read some of the posts here and see the two meanings, the one for harpazo and the very distinctly different one for rapture but someone thought rapture also meant to get caught away. It certainly does now because of "church" usage. Whether it did early on I don't know. As you pointed out the primary meaning of harpazo seems to be something other than the normal meaning for rapture [not as per religious groups believing in a catching away.] One almost synonym for rapture in scripture might be joy [not quite as strong as rapture in English].
rapture as per Meriam Webster=
1 : an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion
b : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
3 often capitalized : the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology
joy as per most common Greek word under Strong's #5479=
carav Chara (khar-ah');
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 5479
- joy, gladness
- the joy received from you
- the cause or occasion of joy
- of persons who are one's joy
joy 51
gladness 3
joyful 1
joyous 1
joyfulness 1
joyfully 1
greatly 1
But as that may not contain new information nor what you wish my next post gives more of my own position with regard to what many people and church groups name as the rapture.
@bbyrd009
Where should we be looking other than within ourselves? Is this not where the new heavens and the new earth are or are to be?
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38
If there were to be a "rapture" why would Jesus pray to His Father in this way?
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15
Why would Jesus speak of the "elect" as if they were going to go through "great tribulation"?
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matt 24:21-22
And again...why does the following verse indicate the that "tares" should be gathered together first and burned?
"But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:29-30
I believe that man must go through what God knows that he must go through...
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Matt 5:10-12
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:" Matt 23:34
"And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
And it shall turn to you for a testimony." Luke 21:1-13
"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20
"We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day." I Cor 4:10-13
"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong" II Cor 12:9-10
"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Gal 4:29
"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Rev 7:13-14
Some of us will die a natural death before the end of time. Some of us will remain through whatever persecutions that are for us during our natural lifetimes.
Let us not tempt God by assuming or presuming that we will not have to suffer in this flesh before our time is finished!
Jesus did and so must we! He has given or will give to us whatever is needed to make it through, if we trust in Him!
Glory to His name!
Where should we be looking other than within ourselves? Is this not where the new heavens and the new earth are or are to be?
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38
If there were to be a "rapture" why would Jesus pray to His Father in this way?
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15
Why would Jesus speak of the "elect" as if they were going to go through "great tribulation"?
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matt 24:21-22
And again...why does the following verse indicate the that "tares" should be gathered together first and burned?
"But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:29-30
I believe that man must go through what God knows that he must go through...
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Matt 5:10-12
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:" Matt 23:34
"And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
And it shall turn to you for a testimony." Luke 21:1-13
"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20
"We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day." I Cor 4:10-13
"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong" II Cor 12:9-10
"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Gal 4:29
"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Rev 7:13-14
Some of us will die a natural death before the end of time. Some of us will remain through whatever persecutions that are for us during our natural lifetimes.
Let us not tempt God by assuming or presuming that we will not have to suffer in this flesh before our time is finished!
Jesus did and so must we! He has given or will give to us whatever is needed to make it through, if we trust in Him!
Glory to His name!
Correct. I simply did not bring that up. And the proof of that is the epistle of James, addressed to the believing Jews who were scattered abroad after the persecution of Hebrew Christians by unbelieving Jews at the time of the apostles.
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
We have a poster here who insists that James was written to Jews under the Old Covenant. But since James said that he was a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ (who established the New Covenant on the day He died), that is sheer nonsense.
And for one easy example:
"And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser [Asher, son of Jacob by Zilpah, handmaiden of Leah]: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;" Luke 2:36
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
The whole thing is a smoke screen. To distract from the Gosple
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
The Verse is 2000 years old.
Today we do not know how many know tribes they are.
But at the second coming of Christ will gather them to him Jerusalem and they then will know what tribe they belong to.
I imagine there are even those today that do not even know they are Jewish. And some who think they are who are not.
But it will all get sorted out.
Yes, God knows any differences that matter and is able to sort them out if and when it is necessary to do so..
What do these even older words mean?
"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion." Joel 3:20-21
What blood is being cleansed?
Consider what was necessary when the Israelites came back from captivity in Babylon having married and had children with the heathen/unbelievers:
"Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law." Ezra 10:3
That was God's counsel for them then. I would let anyone now to whom it might apply listen to hear God's counsel for this moment or some other moment according to God.
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Yes, in addition to the Ten Lost Tribes "scattered among the nations" who will be brought back to the Land, there are those Jews who intermarried with Gentiles and gave up their faith. But God knows where every single one of them is and He will pour out His Spirit on them and bring them back to the Land when they finally reach out in faith to their Messiah.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
It means once again the KJV is misleading and a bad translation.
Joel 3:20-21 New International Version (NIV)
20 Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
21 Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged?
No, I will not.”
As for having children by non-Jews, Mosaic law dealt with making them citizens of Israel.
Parts of the land Judah always have had a remnant. But not so with Jerusalem.
Remember Judah was a tribal land of Israel. All 12 tribes have their own land e xcept for Levi.
I have no trouble much of the time in understanding the role of the children of Israel naturally while living the time of the OT subject to laws gave them through Moses and the prophets. Looking for any meaning of those same words [scriptures] to people NOT living under those laws in that time period can at times be more difficult. Sometimes we do not need to know and sometimes it is simply not God's time to give us understanding.
I have a perhaps unrelated question [which may be off topic for which I apologize] I have asked of many people in the past with assorted answers. Why is the tribe of Dan missing from Revelation chapter 7? No extensive details please so a not to completely derail the thread. I am simply looking for anything new on the subject which absorbed me for quite a while several years back. If you answer must be lengthy, please consider a PM. Thanks
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Because they committed gross idolatry. It is not the only place they are not mentioned.
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