Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[SovereignGrace]

...and where in the world is @Mjh29?

We're hiding in the bunker sipping on champagne as they are kicking yours and @Anthony D'Arienzo butts.

#goodandcoolinthebunker
#champagneiscold
#goodluck

 

[SovereignGrace]

If all men are born spiritually dead, then there was a time in which they did not have access to the grace of the Lord. You seem to be trying to say that because Romans 5:2 is speaking of believers, that there was not a time in which the same were unbelievers. They gained access into grace by faith. Were they already in grace when they gained access? If they weren't, then they were unbelievers who gained access by faith into this grace wherein they now stand as believers. But you won't humble yourself to admit that this is the plain meaning of the text. Your Calvinistic viewpoint blinds you to the truth.



I'm sorry but you are going to have to repeat yourself: I did not see where you addressed this in your post; not even after going back and looking for it.



It is indeed a parable wrought from the texts. We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. The mansion represents standing in grace in this parable, and the key represents the faith that we place in Jesus to gain access into grace (the mansion). I put it in human terms so you can see my point more clearly.

But it is a parable so that,

Mar 4:11, And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12, That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

And it is also written on the same issue:

Mat 13:14, And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15, For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans, like every other book in the bible, was not written with chapters and verses in it, but they were added later...I am pretty sure you already knew this...just adding it to the discussion. You keep bringing Romans 5:2 into the discussion. But this is preceding that verse For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.[Romans 4:16-25]

Apostle Paul uses this as a springboard to bring us into being justified by faith in Romans 5:1 and by this faith we have access to the Father.[Romans 5:2] Notice how Paul wrote and was raised because of our justification. It was because of the Christ's resurrection that we, the believers, have access to the Father by faith. This faith does not resonate from within us, but comes from God, via His word. Every lost person is void of faith. They are dead in trespasses and sins[Ephesians 2:1], and have no faith to exercise. The very moment someone has faith, they are justified, declared righteous before the Father, and have gained access to the Father, not because of their faith, but the faith that became theirs when gifted to them by the Father.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@SovereignGrace,

You're slipping bro, heretics are gaining ground. Surely thou canst post a response and plagiarize me a bit to help out.

The truth will never have anyone gaining ground on it. That's the only constant we have that we can rely on.

 

[justbyfaith]

It was because of the Christ's resurrection that we, the believers, have access to the Father by faith.

Since we have access to the Father by faith, that means that we don't have access to Him apart from faith. How is it then that you say that a relationship with the Father (standing in grace) comes first? We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. And the fact is that I agree that it is about believers. As a believer, I gained access into the grace wherein I now stand by faith; while I was still an unbeliever I obtained faith in Jesus Christ and entered into grace through that faith. If anyone is standing in grace today, they did not always stand in grace; there was a time in which they were not standing in grace. Therefore how did they gain access into the grace wherein they now stand? by faith (Romans 5:2). This is true even though the passage refers primarily to believers; because as a believer, I gained access by faith into this grace wherein I now stand. Access means that I was once outside of the realm of standing in grace, and I entered into grace through some kind of door. I contend that Jesus is the door and that faith is the key to it.

The very moment someone has faith, they are justified, declared righteous before the Father, and have gained access to the Father,

Therefore they did not gain access to the Father (and grace) before having faith. And therefore being a recipient of grace does not come before faith; faith comes first: because it is the catalyst for our entering into grace: we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

 

[justbyfaith]

@SovereignGrace,

You're slipping bro, heretics are gaining ground. Surely thou canst post a response and plagiarize me a bit to help out.

The truth will never have anyone gaining ground on it. That's the only constant we have that we can rely on.

You hope that the truth will not gain any ground; since you are opposed to the truth.

Why not just receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour; calling on His name?

Then there will be no doubt in your minds as to your salvation; but as it is, you have to convolute and twist scripture in order to tell yourselves that you are saved apart from the decision to surrender to Christ; placing your faith and trust wholly in Him.

Perhaps this is only possible if the Father chose you arbitrarily; but if He did not, I don't think you are going to be able to blame Him over your condemnation; because you also made a choice in the matter.

Time and eternity are the issue here. Of course from the perspective of eternity God sees all of those who are rejoicing in heaven and chose every one of them in their temporal lives accordingly. For He sees the end from the beginning; and is also not inactive in our lives.

However, every single person who will be suffering in hell / the lake of fire will have only themselves to blame because they rejected the Lord and His salvation in their lives when the free gift of salvation was clearly presented to them; along with the method by which they might be able to receive it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Since we have access to the Father by faith, that means that we don't have access to Him apart from faith. How is it then that you say that a relationship with the Father (standing in grace) comes first? We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. And the fact is that I agree that it is about believers. As a believer, I gained access into the grace wherein I now stand by faith; while I was still an unbeliever I obtained faith in Jesus Christ and entered into grace through that faith. If anyone is standing in grace today, they did not always stand in grace; there was a time in which they were not standing in grace. Therefore how did they gain access into the grace wherein they now stand? by faith (Romans 5:2). This is true even though the passage refers primarily to believers; because as a believer, I gained access by faith into this grace wherein I now stand. Access means that I was once outside of the realm of standing in grace, and I entered into grace through some kind of door. I contend that Jesus is the door and that faith is the key to it.



Therefore they did not gain access to the Father (and grace) before having faith. And therefore being a recipient of grace does not come before faith; faith comes first: because it is the catalyst for our entering into grace: we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

The very moment one has faith, they are saved, have access to the Father, and not before.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You hope that the truth will not gain any ground; since you are opposed to the truth.

Why not just receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour; calling on His name?

Then there will be no doubt in your minds as to your salvation; but as it is, you have to convolute and twist scripture in order to tell yourselves that you are saved apart from the decision to surrender to Christ; placing your faith and trust wholly in Him.

Perhaps this is only possible if the Father chose you arbitrarily; but if He did not, I don't think you are going to be able to blame Him over your condemnation; because you also made a choice in the matter.

Time and eternity are the issue here. Of course from the perspective of eternity God sees all of those who are rejoicing in heaven and chose every one of them in their temporal lives accordingly. For He sees the end from the beginning; and is also not inactive in our lives.

However, every single person who will be suffering in hell / the lake of fire will have only themselves to blame because they rejected the Lord and His salvation in their lives when the free gift of salvation was clearly presented to them.

I have treated you with Christian charity and you gave me this in return? We do not twist scripture my friend. God does not arbitrarily do anything, either. Good bye.

 

[justbyfaith]

The very moment one has faith, they are saved, have access to the Father, and not before.

Amen, now you are getting the picture!

I have treated you with Christian charity and you gave me this in return? We do not twist scripture my friend. God does not arbitrarily do anything, either. Good bye.

I have done you no wrong. I have not responded in any way that is contrary to the way that some of you have responded to me. You yourself may have treated me with Christian charity; but I am dealing with a group of people as far as I'm concerned and not you as an individual. I feel that I have treated all of you with Christian charity; although that does not make it so.

Yes, I find that Calvinistic doctrine relies on a twisting and convoluting of scripture in order to make its points. This is not an indictment on you per se, unless you are aware that this is what you are doing. But I think that you have been taken in by a theological system that has cultic overtones. As such, it is not easy for you to see the error of your system of belief. Because you are completely absorbed by it; and I think you even have emotional investment in its being true.

As for God being arbitrary in His decision to receive a man to heaven or reject him to hell; I agree that God does not make arbitrary decisions on the issue. He bases His foreordained election on foreknowledge of who will or will not have faith when presented with the truth of the gospel. Thus it is not an arbitrary decision on His part; but He chooses us based on His foreknowledge of whether or not we will choose Him.

But in Calvinism the decision of God in judgment is indeed arbitrary, regardless of a man's reaction to the gospel message: at least, that is what the doctrine of Calvinism comes across to me as trying to say.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I have treated you with Christian charity and you gave me this in return? We do not twist scripture my friend. God does not arbitrarily do anything, either. Good bye.

Coming from a guy who doesn't work, spends all day online denying the Gospel, fighting the Gospel, yet doesn't have enough sense or time to read the context of a verse? He needs to be avoided, hes an idle babbler, he falls under the category of Paul's instructions on who to avoid.

Something is severely amiss with him. Then he calls you, Tony, myself, and others who labor in the word and doctrine lost? That's sad but that's the rotten fruit his tree is dropping bro.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Coming from a guy who doesn't work, spends all day online denying the Gospel, fighting the Gospel, yet doesn't have enough sense or time to read the context of a verse? He needs to be avoided, hes an idle babbler, he falls under the category of Paul's instructions on who to avoid.

Something is severely amiss with him. Then he calls you, Tony, myself, and others who labor in the word and doctrine lost? That's sad but that's the rotten fruit his tree is dropping bro.

Yea, verily.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Amen, now you are getting the picture!

Amen, now you’re getting the picture! No one outside of the Christ has faith, does not have access.

I have done you no wrong. I have not responded in any way that is contrary to the way that some of you have responded to me. You yourself may have treated me with Christian charity; but I am dealing with a group of people as far as I'm concerned and not you as an individual. I feel that I have treated all of you with Christian charity; although that does not make it so.

Yes, I find that Calvinistic doctrine relies on a twisting and convoluting of scripture in order to make its points. This is not an indictment on you per se, unless you are aware that this is what you are doing. But I think that you have been taken in by a theological system that has cultic overtones. As such, it is not easy for you to see the error of your system of belief. Because you are completely absorbed by it; and I think you even have emotional investment in its being true.

As for God being arbitrary in His decision to receive a man to heaven or reject him to hell; I agree that God does not make arbitrary decisions on the issue. He bases His foreordained election on foreknowledge of who will or will not have faith when presented with the truth of the gospel. Thus it is not an arbitrary decision on His part; but He chooses us based on His foreknowledge of whether or not we will choose Him.

But in Calvinism the decision of God in judgment is indeed arbitrary, regardless of a man's reaction to the gospel message: at least, that is what the doctrine of Calvinism comes across to me as trying to say.

The rest of this is you rebelling against God’s revealed word my friend. God did not arbitrarily elect anyone. He did this in accordance to the kind intentions of His will.[Ephesians 1:5]

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Amen, now you are getting the picture!



I have done you no wrong. I have not responded in any way that is contrary to the way that some of you have responded to me. You yourself may have treated me with Christian charity; but I am dealing with a group of people as far as I'm concerned and not you as an individual. I feel that I have treated all of you with Christian charity; although that does not make it so.

Yes, I find that Calvinistic doctrine relies on a twisting and convoluting of scripture in order to make its points. This is not an indictment on you per se, unless you are aware that this is what you are doing. But I think that you have been taken in by a theological system that has cultic overtones. As such, it is not easy for you to see the error of your system of belief. Because you are completely absorbed by it; and I think you even have emotional investment in its being true.

As for God being arbitrary in His decision to receive a man to heaven or reject him to hell; I agree that God does not make arbitrary decisions on the issue. He bases His foreordained election on foreknowledge of who will or will not have faith when presented with the truth of the gospel. Thus it is not an arbitrary decision on His part; but He chooses us based on His foreknowledge of whether or not we will choose Him.

But in Calvinism the decision of God in judgment is indeed arbitrary, regardless of a man's reaction to the gospel message: at least, that is what the doctrine of Calvinism comes across to me as trying to say.

From the idle person who libels, slanders, name calls, even calling others Satan for challenging his errant out of context theology. Not to mention the fact of being too lazy to read the chapter a verse is in for context by your own admission.

Yeah, keep telling yourself it's us.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Amen, now you’re getting the picture! No one outside of the Christ has faith, does not have access.





The rest of this is you rebelling against God’s revealed word my friend. God did not arbitrarily elect anyone. He did this in accordance to the kind intentions of His will.[Ephesians 1:5]

Thanks for offering biblical correction. Unfortunately it will most likely be overlooked and rejected.

 

[justbyfaith]

Mat 7:15, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16, Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I consider that the fruit that I see coming from you, @Preacher4Truth, is the fruit of the doctrine that you espouse. Seeing that fruit, I will avoid believing your doctrine at all costs; because I certainly don't ever want to become like you.

 

[justbyfaith]

From the idle person who libels, slanders, name calls, even calling others Satan

I have called no one satan except for satan. You came against me with accusatory comments and I addressed the spirit that was behind your words.

It bears repeating and doing again:

The Lord rebuke you, satan.

Now get it straight: I am not addressing you, @Preacher4Truth, but the spirit that is behind your accusatory comments; for he is the accuser of the brethren.

I will overcome you by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of my testimony.

Judge not according to the outward appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yeah, keep telling yourself it's us.

1Co 16:9, For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

 

[justbyfaith]

Coming from a guy who doesn't work,

1Ti 5:17, Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

In accusing me of being worse than an unbeliever, your tongue is rising up against me in judgment.

And this is how I will react, though it is indeed asking for more abuse from my adversaries:

Abba Father, I ask you to convict @Preacher4Truth of his iniquity and to save him. Be knocking on the door of his heart Lord and convict him of sin and righteousness and judgment and draw him to Christ. I pray that he will hear the gospel as it truly is and receive it, whether long time or short. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

1Co 9:3, Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
1Co 9:4, Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1Co 9:5, Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1Co 9:6, Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

Act 6:1, And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Act 6:2, Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Act 6:3, Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Act 6:4, But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

 

[justbyfaith]

he falls under the category of Paul's instructions on who to avoid.

You have three fingers pointing back at you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

1Ti 5:17, Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

In accusing me of being worse than an unbeliever, your tongue is rising up against me in judgment.

And this is how I will react, though it is indeed asking for more abuse from my adversaries:

Abba Father, I ask you to convict @Preacher4Truth of his iniquity and to save him. Be knocking on the door of his heart Lord and convict him of sin and righteousness and judgment and draw him to Christ. I pray that he will hear the gospel as it truly is and receive it, whether long time or short. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

Boo flipping hoo! What are you, 5? Playing the persecution complex I see. Its time to grow up and get out of mommy's basement.

 

[justbyfaith]

My wife says she can't believe this is a Christian website. I'm in agreement.

2Co 13:1, This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.