The necessity of the Trinity
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It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates ppl. Salvation is Trinitarian. The Father elected those who He elected, gave them to the Son, who bore their sins upon the cross. The Spirit is the One who quickens them, regenerates them.
I believe the 1689 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith answers the Trinity quite nicely...
Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )
3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )
3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
From the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith...they too nailed it...
CHAPTER 2
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
1. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
2. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
CHAPTER 2
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
1. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
2. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that you have to believe The True God to be a trinitarian God in order to be saved.
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."[John 8:24]
A faulty view of the Christ will not save one soul my friend. Granted, none are saved by knowledge, but by grace through faith. After being saved, we are to grow in grace and knowledge.[2 Peter 3:18] No one who says they have been saved for YEARS, DECADES, and has a deformed, warped, twisted, grotesque view of God is saved. The Holy Spirit will lead them to the truth of all things concerning Him.[John 16:13]
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
You get your knowledge about God from the scriptures and I haven't seen a trinity doctrine in the scriptures. Men established the trinity doctrine, but what men established isn't in the scriptures. As long as the scriptures say, he that denies the Father and the Son is an anti- Christ that's what I'll believe.
Matthew 3:16-17 shows all three there.
When the Christ was praying in Gethsamane, He was not praying to Himself, but His Father.
The Christ said the Spirit will lead them into all truth.[John 16:13]
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
A careful study of God’s Word and Christ’s teachings shows that only a limited number share the privilege of being born again, born ‘from water and from spirit,’ thus to share heavenly rulership with Christ. (John 3:3-5;Romans 8:16, 17; Revelation 14:1-3) The “great crowd” of true Christians today do not need to be born again, since their hope of everlasting life is earthly, not heavenly. (2 Peter 3:13;Revelation 21:3, 4) Furthermore, Christendom’s teaching is based on a false premise—that man has an immortal soul in need of salvation. Nowhere in the Bible is there support for such a doctrine, which is in fact derived from ancient Greek philosophy. Plus I see nothing in the scriptures that say people being born again is trinitarian or salvation is trinitarian.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Nowhere in Matthew 3:16,17 is there a doctrine that says there are three persons making one God. Nowhere in this scripture does it say all three are equal.
Jesus said that “the true worshipers will worship the Father with . . . truth.” (John 4:23) That truth has been recorded in the Bible. (John 17:17) Does the Bible teach that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are three persons in one God?
Jesus never claimed to be equal to God. Instead, Jesus worshipped God. (Luke 22:41-44) A third line of evidence concerns Jesus’ relationship with his followers. Even after he was raised from the dead to the spirit realm, Jesus called his followers “my brothers.” (Matthew 28:10) Were they brothers of Almighty God? Of course not! But through their faith in Christ—God’s preeminent Son—they too became sons of the one Father. (Galatians 3:26)
- “My Father is greater than I [Jesus].”—John 14:28.*
- “I [Jesus] ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.”—John 20:17.
- “To us there is but one God, the Father.”—1 Corinthians 8:6.
- “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”—1 Peter 1:3.
- “These things saith the Amen [Jesus], . . . the beginning of the creation of God.”—Revelation 3:14.*
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Jesus isn't YAHWEH. People are always trying to say Jesus is God, he isn't. You either believe YAHWEH sent his Only-Begotten Son who was given the name Jesus when a man or you don't believe that. John 3:16 says God(YAHWEH) sent his only-begotten son to the world, it doesn't say God(YAHWEH) sent himself.
“Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)
“and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:4)
101G
Well-Known Member
@brakelite, I know that this is a little off of the subject but worth your edification. in the knowledge of Christ is plainly seen in the sheep and Goat judgment. listen to the verdict. Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
LISTEN TO THE VERDICT,
Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
yes, they did wonderful thing in his NAME, but they NEVER "KNEW" him.
PICJAG.
Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
LISTEN TO THE VERDICT,
Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
yes, they did wonderful thing in his NAME, but they NEVER "KNEW" him.
PICJAG.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
It is evident that the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew characters (יהוה) was used in both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint. Therefore, whether Jesus and his disciples read the Scriptures in either Hebrew or Greek, they would come across the divine name. In the synagogue at Nazareth, when Jesus rose and accepted the book of Isaiah and read Isa 61:1, 2 where the Tetragrammaton occurs twice, he pronounced the divine name. (He didn't say he was the person represented by the Tetragrammaton) This was in accordance with his determination to make Jehovah’s name known as can be seen from his prayer to his Father: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. . . . I have made your name known to them and will make it known.”—Joh 17:6, Jesus wasn't talking about his personal name Jesus.
At Jude 5 we are talking about the Jews The True God led out of Egypt who's name is represented by the Tetragrammaton, which as I said when Jesus read Isaiah 61:1,2 he was not saying he was God in that scripture and he's not The True God in Jude 5. Jude is talking about the Hebrew scripture where the Tetragrammaton represents the true God personal name who was the Father and God of Jesus. Jesus was always making his Father's name Known that name that is represented by the Tetragrammaton he never said was his name.
Yep, I had that in mind. Also worth noting is that those who do know God...those who do enter the kingdom, are doing the will of the Father. They are walking in obedience. We do the devils own work when we downplay God's laws.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Jesus is the Lord (YAHWEH) and only by the Holy Spirit can one discern this. Early New Covenant believers knew this because of the LXX translating YAHWEH as Lord and the LXX being their preferred OT.
I think this speaks of Oneness Pentecostals and Pentecostalism in general. These lost do all the works Pentecostals do "in Jesus' name". Yet Christ never knew them. Mainline churches do not fit the description.
farouk: yes, the Holy Spirit portrays/represents a personality indeed although it is not of itself as a separate person. It is of the Father, and he feels grief in your example.
Bless you,
APAK
101G
Well-Known Member
Correct 100% because they, A. "KNOW", and B. "UNDERSTAND" his will. you're right. scripture,
James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:7 "For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
it is good to see other christians who are seeking God in earnest. for Iron sharpen Iron.
PICJAG.
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