Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Copperhead]

Just because I didn't list every verse which proves my point doesn't mean they don't exist. I try to exercise a little brevity once and a while. God knows I struggle between the desire to be comprehensive but not weary the people with long winded posts.

I understand that, but you are not making light assertions. When one makes some pretty bold assertions that counter what most have held, then it requires more detailed evidence. And you can break up your posts so that folks are not overwhelmed. But the standard in scripture regarding witnesses has to be followed if one wants to make the case, else there is no basis for taking it into consideration.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The nations, at the provocation of the released Satan, will want to throw off the rule of Messiah.

If one studies the Kingdom Parables of Matthew 13, one will see that the kingdom is not a perfect place, at least when it comes to the heart of man. There will be sin, death, and Yeshua will need to rule with a rod of iron to deal with anyone or any nation getting out of line. Zechariah 14 supports this also.

Yes, Isaiah, as well, indicates that there will be sin and death in the Millennial Kingdom (although greatly reduced). Isaiah chapter 65 gives a picture of that time. Very long life will return as God will apparently repair the genomes of all life on earth as well as restoring the earth to its original pristine condition of a paradise.

At the End of the Millennial Kingdom, the earth and sky will be destroyed by fire and a new earth with a new atmosphere will be created. The 1,400 mile cube that is the New Jerusalem will come down to rest on the new earth and it will be there throughout eternity with God the Father and the Lamb as its source of light.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, Isaiah, as well, indicates that there will be sin and death in the Millennial Kingdom (although greatly reduced). Isaiah chapter 65 gives a picture of that time. Very long life will return as God will apparently repair the genomes of all life on earth as well as restoring the earth to its original pristine condition of a paradise.

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, how will any but the saints in glorified bodies (imperishable) be there?

 

[Copperhead]

At the End of the Millennial Kingdom, the earth and sky will be destroyed by fire and a new earth with a new atmosphere will be created. The 1,400 mile cube that is the New Jerusalem will come down to rest on the new earth and it will be there throughout eternity with God the Father and the Lamb as its source of light.

That is going to be fantastic to see! That description leads me to see that multi-dimensionality beyond what we know now is going on.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, how will any but the saints in glorified bodies (imperishable) be there?

If you are speaking of 1 Corinthians 15:50--Paul is there speaking of heaven. No mortal flesh can enter the Kingdom of God (heaven). But that does not mean that the Millennial Kingdom on earth (which is the one for which Israel has always longed) will not contain mortal men--in fact, the latter chapters of the Book of Ezekiel seem to indicate just that.

 

[Dave L]

That is going to be fantastic to see! That description leads me to see that multi-dimensionality beyond what we know now is going on.

There is no millennium, and this could happen today.

 

[Dave L]

If you are speaking of 1 Corinthians 15:50--Paul is there speaking of heaven. No mortal flesh can enter the Kingdom of God (heaven). But that does not mean that the Millennial Kingdom on earth (which is the one for which Israel has always longed) will not contain mortal men--in fact, the latter chapters of the Book of Ezekiel seem to indicate just that.

The kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are the same. = no millennium because flesh and blood cannot inherit it. Only glorified saints will be in the New Heaven and Earth.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

There is no millennium, and this could happen today.

If there is no (Millennial) Kingdom for Israel, then all of the OT prophecies about it would not come to pass and prophecy would be overturned. Unthinkable. IT. WILL. HAPPEN.

 

[Dave L]

If there is no (Millennial) Kingdom for Israel, then all of the OT prophecies about it would not come to pass and prophecy would be overturned. Unthinkable. IT. WILL. HAPPEN.

You need to read Jesus first on the Kingdom, then adjust the OT to it. For example, the OT said Elijah would first come, Jesus said this was John the Baptist. The OT said the temple was physical. Jesus said He and the Church are the Temple. Etc., etc.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are the same. = no millennium because flesh and blood cannot inherit it. Only glorified saints will be in the New Heaven and Earth.

It depends on your point of view. Since Matthew is the only gospel to speak of the Kingdom of Heaven--it is likely that the earthly Kingdom of Israel was in view. The Kingdom of God, used in the other gospels is likely speaking both of the spiritual kingdom in heaven (God's home) and the physical kingdom of Israel on earth.

 

[Dave L]

It depends on your point of view. Since Matthew is the only gospel to speak of the Kingdom of Heaven--it is likely that the earthly Kingdom of Israel was in view. The Kingdom of God, used in the other gospels is likely speaking both of the spiritual kingdom in heaven (God's home) and the physical kingdom of Israel on earth.

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You need to read Jesus first on the Kingdom, then adjust the OT to it. For example, the OT said Elijah would first come, Jesus said this was John the Baptist. The OT said the temple was physical. Jesus said He and the Church are the Temple. Etc., etc.

The Kingdom that Jesus most often spoke of was the spiritual kingdom in heaven. But, that does not negate the end-time prophecies of the restoration of a physical kingdom to Israel--which were predicated on God doing a work, by His Spirit, among Israel and Judah to bring them into conformity with His will for them. At the time of the End--there will be no mortals left--only immortals.

 

[Dave L]

The Kingdom that Jesus most often spoke of was the spiritual kingdom in heaven. But, that does not negate the end-time prophecies of the restoration of a physical kingdom to Israel--which were predicated on God doing a work, by His Spirit, among Israel and Judah to bring them into conformity with His will for them. At the time of the End--there will be no mortals left--only immortals.

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)

Had Israel embraced Jesus as their Messiah, I believe that the physical Kingdom would have been given to Israel at that time and then they would have become a light to the Gentiles from there. The heavenly kingdom of God was then put into place. Either way--we won.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

Yes. Are not demons spiritual beings?

 

[Copperhead]

The audience was Hebrew. The concept of a literal, physical kingdom ruled over by Messiah was foundational in their eyes. They knew the scripture. Even when Yeshua is about to ascend back to the Father, the disciples asked if the kingdom is now going to be restored to Israel. Yeshua did not say their question was stupid or wrong theology, He actually affirmed that the question was valid, only that is was the Father's authority to determine when that would happen and they should not worry about it and focus on the propagation of the Gospel.

Acts 1:6-8 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

 

[Dave L]

Had Israel embraced Jesus as their Messiah, I believe that the physical Kingdom would have been given to Israel at that time and then they would have become a light to the Gentiles from there. The heavenly kingdom of God was then put into place. Either way--we won.

Israel did embrace Jesus as the Messiah. God rejected those who did not and grafted believing gentiles into their place.

 

[Phoneman777]

I understand that, but you are not making light assertions. When one makes some pretty bold assertions that counter what most have held, then it requires more detailed evidence. And you can break up your posts so that folks are not overwhelmed. But the standard in scripture regarding witnesses has to be followed if one wants to make the case, else there is no basis for taking it into consideration.

First of all, your assertion that OT and NT evidence is needed is subjective. Only that we have "two or three" witnesses, but I agree more is better.

The two texts prove that Israel is done, and the the kingdom of God has been handed over to the Gentiles, which is evidenced by yet another example of textual evidence:

"And as many who walk according to this rule (the rule of becoming a new creature in Jesus) peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God".

Paul says the "Israel of God" are those who "walk according to this rule" of being a new creature in Christ.

 

[Phoneman777]

Yeah, times have changed. Not sure I understand your "glorious militarism" idea about Viet Nam. I don't want to misunderstand your meaning there. Would appreciate knowing what you meant in that statement.

Our culture is fascinated by violence and war so that was a bit of commentary on that.

 

[Phoneman777]

Israel did embrace Jesus as the Messiah. God rejected those who did not and grafted believing gentiles into their place.

Now you're redefining Biblical terms!

You're actually arguing that a small minority of disenfranchised Jewish saints represent the nation of Israel, while the entire religious ruling class and the masses of Jews which joined them in shouting "Crucify Him!" - and continued the entire Israelite sacrificial economy for another FORTY YEARS afterward - do not.