Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[n2thelight]

The "church" was never part of the Sinai Covenant. That was made with Israel. Likewise, the very same group is in view regarding the New Covenant.

Those that are not of the Hebrews that accept Yeshua and are redeemed are grafted in to the tree of Israel. They do not replace Israel or become Israel.

Who is Christ as pertaining to Israel?

 

[Copperhead]

Who is Christ as pertaining to Israel?

The promised Messiah who will rule according to the Davidic covenant. Do you not read anything?

"Christ" is a title, not His name. Christ means Messiah. Yeshua is His name, as foretold in Zechariah and affirmed by Gabriel to Mary.

 

[n2thelight]

The promised Messiah who will rule according to the Davidic covenant. Do you not read anything?

"Christ" is a title, not His name. Christ means Messiah. Yeshua is His name, as foretold in Zechariah and affirmed by Gabriel to Mary.

You can call Him any name you wish,that's not the focus right now ,who is He to Israel?

 

[n2thelight]

The whole of the Bible speaks of Christ,He is the focus, from the very first prophecy.

 

[Copperhead]

You can call Him any name you wish,that's not the focus right now ,who is He to Israel?

Question was answered.

 

[Naomi25]

I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

When we look up in the Strong's numbered concordance and Greek dictionary, we see that this is the only place in the whole Bible that this Greek word "alive" is used in this form. It is # 2227 in Strong Greek dictionary. "zoopoieo, dzo-op-oy-eh'-o; to vitalize, to make alive, to give life." This does not mean to be given eternal life, but it does mean that Christ revives all. Remember in Luke 16 in the parable where the rich man was lying in torment and asked that God would send Lazarus, the poor man, to warn his brothers of the judgment. Was he soul sleeping? Of course not, he could see Abraham and he could see Lazarus being taken to the bosom of Abraham, and he knew exactly what was going on. Why? Because he was there across the gulf that separated him from Abraham and God.

All souls are made alive for some are going to eternal rewards, while others are going to paradise also to be held for the day that they will be sentenced, tested, to perish. If soul sleep was true then that rich man that wanted the favor from Lazarus would not have been going through such torment while in the place of holding after his death. He could see the throne across the gulf and he knew that he missed it all, and there was nothing that he could do about it. He could see those that overcame, and the rich man knew that he had failed.

Christ makes all alive, though not eternally for the sinners that have not repented, but alive until the the time of judgment. This documents that there is no such thing as soul sleep.

First, I agree that there is no such thing as soul sleep...I was not suggesting that there was. My point, which is where I suspect it differs from you, considering what you have said above, is that the unjust do, in fact, have an 'eternal' destiny.

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:46

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:2

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. -Matthew 25:41

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, -2 Thessalonians 1:9

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 7

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

This may be a bit confusing, but this is referring to God's elect and the coming of Jesus Christ, and it will be discussed later in this chapter.

I fail to see how it could be confusing. The passage before it is speaking of our hope of resurrection, of the fact that we can have faith that Christ was truly raised from death; the firstfruits of such a resurrection. That segues into our passage: 23 onwards. It tells us that there is an order, Christ clearly was 'first'...being "firstfruits", and then us, those who "belong to him". But, do we get this 'resurrection' as soon as we 'belong to him'? No...the order is given to us...."afterwards, AT HIS COMING."
Simple.

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

At the very end of the Millennium age, the Son will deliver His Kingdom up to the Father. At the time of the Judgment God will put an end to all the rule and all power and authority that Satan will have on this world, or anywhere. That is when God will send Satan and all his realm and all evil and those that chose to follow him into the lake of fire.

Except, that is not what it says. Verse 23 tells us that AT his coming we shall be given our new bodies. Verse 24 then tells us THEN comes the end, WHEN he delivers up the Kingdom to God. Why? Because he shall have put down all rule and power. But hang on! The next verse tells us that the last enemy is death...surely he can't hand over the Kingdom until death has been defeated too...the 'last' enemy?
This is where 1 Cor 15:54 comes in. When we continue reading Chapter 15 we clearly see the IMPLICATION of verse 23. WHEN we receive our resurrection body...that which Christ was the firstfruits of, THEN death is swallowed up in victory. THAT moment is the defeat of death. It is that moment that allows Christ to hand over the Kingdom. That means that this handing over happens AT Christ's coming....not at the end of a "millennium", after death still holds sway for another 1000 years. That is nowhere in this passage at all!

I Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet."

Jesus Christ must reign until all of His enemies, which includes Satan, the fallen angels and all the souls of them that chose to follow him will be destroyed. This comes after the time of judgment and the Millennium thousand year reign of Christ kingdom on earth. This is why the full Godhead will not be on the earth until after the Great white throne judgment and hell has turned Satan and his realm to ashes. There are two death as we read of in Revelation 20.

Hmmm. Here's the problem with that. People "assume" the description in Revelation of Satan's defeat and tossing into the Lake of Fire 'has to' happen after the "Millennium". But that is NOT what 1 Cor 15, or Eph 1:20 says at all! Listen to these texts:

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:24–26

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. -Ephesians 1:20–21

What do these texts tell us? Eph 1:20 tell us that Satan is a defeated foe already. He may be running at the end of a leash, but the moment Christ returns, that leash gets yanked and he's done for, al la Rev 20:10. How do I say it's done 'just like that'? Because of 1 Cor 15. That tells us that WHEN Christ returns THEN comes the end. It comes because he's handed over the Kingdom after destroying all these powers and authorities he's had at his feet all this time anyway! The very last enemy to go is NOT Satan, but death. And, as I said before, 1 Cor 15 tells us death is defeated AT Christ's return as well, at our resurrection...the perishable recieving the imperishable.

 

[Naomi25]

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

This is John writing and speaking as Jesus is showing him what is going to happen in the future. John is viewing the time at the great white throne judgment, and the events after the age of the flesh is over, and after Jesus has returned and His thousand year Millennium is over and finished.

Except, knowing what we do about the timing. That both death and Satan must be defeated BY and AT Christ's return, we must then look at this GWT passage and see the (rather clear) parallels with Matt 25 and Christ sitting on his "glorious throne" to judge the nations "when he comes in his glory". Again...where does this leave the idea of an earthly 1000 year reign? If death and Satan are already in the Lake of Fire, then scripture tells us the next thing on the schedule is eternity, not a 1000 year period that...well...nothing happens at the end of 'cause Satan is not there and neither is death. It becomes pointless.

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

There are several things to notice here; first that the dead that are judged at this time are those whose souls that have not received Jesus Christ and under the shed blood of Christ. They are spiritually dead.

There are two sets of books kept, one is the "book of life" where only your name is written, and that is because all sins have been forgiven and are blotted out, and the only thing remaining is your name.

The second set of books kept by God are for the spiritually dead, and all their works are recorded and will documented and they will be used here on judgment day. The dead will be judged out of the books by their works and their refusal to accept the shed blood of Christ as the sacrifice for their sins.

I'm not exactly sure how the fact that there are two books helps your case. We expect there to be a difference between saved and unsaved. We are told elsewhere in scripture that we shall be judged by our deeds. And, of course we know that in truth we are not truly "judged righteous" by these deeds but on Christ alone, but that beyond that our works do play some part in the rewards/punishments that will stand in eternity.
However...none of this speaks to the necessity of this being at the end of an earthly Millennium. Again, I point out the clear parallels between this throne judgement scene and the one in Matt 25. They both speak of dividing and judging the just from the unjust. The GWT seems to focus more on the dead that are raised, but we know from 1 Thess 4 that the dead and living are 'dealt with' at the same time, more or less, so there is absolutely nothing to suggest that these two 'throne judgements' cannot be the same event.

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

There is only one thing that will allow a soul to survive this judgment and that is the blood of Christ, and your name recorded in the "book of life". All other spiritually dead souls will be ushered into the lake of fire, right along with Satan, and all his demonic realm, and that includes that sweet old lady that was to good for the blood of Christ. It includes the minister that had devised another way to salvation, and it includes you if you follow them in their ways.

I'm...not so keen on arguing on who merit's the Lake of Fire. Sure, we agree only salvation in Christ saves you from it...I'm unsure who I've spoken to recently who would say otherwise.
However, what I would like to point out is this: If this is the point where death and hell are tossed into the Lake of fire, then this is clearly the point in 1 Cor 15 where Christ "delivers the Kingdom to the Father"...having defeated the last enemy; death. Death can only be considered finally defeated when it is tossed into the Lake of fire.
And you will note that this, in the scope of Revelation, comes after the 1000 years. After Satan has had his "last hurrah" and then been tossed into the lake of fire. This, is the last and final action of victory. And 1 Cor 15 has it happening AT Christ's coming and AT our 'Rapture'.

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

It is pretty cut and dry, with no loop-holes. You are either part of the eternal kingdom or you are not, there is no way out or through except for the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Your name is either written in the book of life, or it is not. Satan is going to be destroyed at this time, and all those that chose to follow him.

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This last enemy that shall be destroyed is "death", which is one of Satan's names, and that will be the second death. It is the death of all evil, and it is a spiritual death. Friend, not even Satan is destroyed until after the great white throne judgment. The first death is the death of your flesh body, while the second death is the death of your very soul itself. It will be blotted out as though it had never existed, not even in the minds of your mother and loved ones. This is the most tragic thing that can happen to a child of God.

Yeah. See, I'm not exactly sure where you get this. Please see above where the bible repeatedly states that punishment of the unjust will be "eternal". If that "eternal" doesn't mean eternal, then what's to say our "eternal" won't be eternal?
And I think that if you are attempting to say that when the bible says "death shall be destroyed" it's actually talking about Satan, I think I'd want to see biblical proof that he was called "death".

 

[Naomi25]

You are misinterpreting what Paul said in that 1 Cor.15:23-28 passage, and you must include down to verse 28 to get all of it, not just pull out a couple of verses that you want to try to support a doctrine of men like you're doing.

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? But, point of fact is, verse 28 only brings us full circle and doesn't weigh into the timing or the chronology of things. Verse 28 simply affirms the order of the Trinity...that once Christ has FINISHED his work...that work being delivering the kingdom because he has defeated death...he will be subjected to the Father, and that way God will be all in all. The perfect order of the Trinity established, as it was, as it has been and will be.

Now...you can try and say that has something to say about WHEN Christ returns. WHO he resurrects, WHEN he does it, WHEN death is defeated and WHY that defeat is meaningful THEN...if you want, but I think we both know that it's pointless.

1 Cor 15:23-28
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul is giving a short summary of this subject of 'order' with these 23 & 24 verses. But in the next 25 through 28 verses, he gives more detail of this subject about when that 'end' will be.

And I ALREADY POINTED OUT TO YOU THAT CONDITION FOR THE END THERE IN RED, which you simply chose to IGNORE.

Yeah...maybe it's just me, but your last post didn't seem to mention it at all. Unless you think your reference to the synagogue of Satan was your really obvious link in to this passage, in which case...good job!
But hey...I really, really appreciate the bold, capital font. Shows me you care.

Paul gives MORE INFO ON THAT CONDITION OF CHRIST'S FUTURE REIGN...

25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, Which did put all things under Him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him That put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

The Father is excepted in that future reign, for only Jesus MUST reign over all His enemies first before the Kingdom can be delivered up to The Father. That is exactly what Apostle Paul is saying there.

It's funny. You say that by missing verse 28 I'm missing the whole point of the passage. But then you seem to focus on it and miss the clear point of everything else. You say that "Jesus MUST reign over all His enemies first before the Kingdom can be delivered up to the Father"?

Swell, great! Here's your problem. Eph 1:20 tell us he's already ruling and reigning over all of them.
Then these verses you skip over tell us that these things that HAVE TO HAPPEN before he can hand over the Kingdom, are sort of neatly wrapped up in a bow and pretty much assumed to have happened (a la Eph 1:20), leaving the ONLY thing left to do (in other words defeat)...death. The real problem you have here, of course, is that two paragraphs later death...you know...the LAST enemy, is, in point of fact....defeated.
Where does that leave you, and all these things that you say have to be done before the Kingdom can be handed over? Reigning over all powers, authority and enemies: check! Defeat death: check! Deliver the Kingdom: check! Be in subjection to the Father: check!

But you are only interested in TWISTING WHAT PAUL SAID THERE! IN FAVOR OF YOUR PET DOCTRINES OF MEN YOU FOLLOW.

Ah, yes...the horrific twisting. Shocking that I should take the verses as they are and shake em out for you, I know. The thing that makes me laugh, is that by writing them out verse by verse as you have, it just makes it more visually obvious how they follow on. This happens, then that happens, then that happens. Ipso facto dude.

 

[Keraz]

Those that are not Jacob (Israel) that accept Yeshua and are redeemed are grafted in to the tree of Israel. They do not replace Israel or become Israel nor are the misplaced, unknown Israel that have "come home to Papa". The church does not supersede Israel.

And that does not negate the scripture that all of Jacob (Israel) will be restored as a physical national identity in the Messianic Kingdom, separate of the non-Hebrew nations that will also be part of the Messianic Kingdom, of which those that are redeemed now and make up the bride of Messiah will rule over with a rod of iron along side Messiah. Revelation 2:26-27

If anyone would like to try and explain or interpret this, because I surely can't unravel it.
CH seems to have a different Bible to me, one that has two people; the Church and Israel, with different destinies. My Bible says in many scriptures that there is only one people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, John 17:20-23, +

 

[Phoneman777]

The major flaw in your argument is that the RCC never controlled the whole world with an iron fist and applied the Mark of the Beast to control buying and selling of goods worldwide. Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church did not behead those it considered heretics.

The "whole world wondered after the Beast" happens after the deadly wound is healed, which was in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican state territories back. And the papacy has been steadily garnering worldwide attention and adoration.

 

[Phoneman777]

I will let God have the last Word on this subject:
Malachi 3:6-7 I; the Lord do not change and you, [my People] have not ceased to be the children of Jacob. Ever since the time of your forefathers, you have been wayward and have not kept My Laws. But if you return to Me, I shall return to you.

Yes, let's allow God to have the last word:

"Verily, I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you (Literal Israel) and given to a nation (Spiritual Israel) bringing forth the fruits thereof".

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."​

 

[Phoneman777]

The hiding is in heaven according to the passage.

Do you have to hide from a tornado that's rumbling through another state?
Do you have to hide from police when they are searching for an escaped convict?
Do you have to hide from your friends if you all are not playing hide and seek?

Do you not understand that if the saints are in heaven where there's no threat of destruction, there's no need to "hide" from the threat?

The threat against David was down here on Earth, not in heaven, just as the threat raging down here during the 7 Last Plagues require God to hide His people, lest they be consumed with that destruction.

 

[Phoneman777]

Just can't contain yourself from making personal attacks can you? Coward? Yeah sure. Vietnam Vet, 7 years total service, Recon team leader. Yeah, I just whimper like a whipped pup around folks like you. But unlike you, I do not feel intimidated by anyone or their theology to the point where I need to attack their character. You have serious issues you need to work out if you expect anyone to believe you are part of the redeemed. You do not play well with others.

I'm a Navy Gulf War and Bosnian War vet, Avionics Tech - served on the U.S.S. Saratoga. Two deployments, one in the Red Sea and the other in the Adriatic. Got to see Israel, Jordon, Turkey, lotsa other places. Not the "glorious militarism" of Vietnam, but I was too young to go. And today, our young people have to run to safe spaces and grab crayons and coloring books if someone hurts their feelings. SMH

 

[Copperhead]

The "whole world wondered after the Beast" happens after the deadly wound is healed, which was in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican state territories back. And the papacy has been steadily garnering worldwide attention and adoration.

Please provide both OT and NT support to that assertion. One thing I have noticed in scripture is that the Lord is very precise in both timing and who is involved in a prophecy. I would be interested to the details of your analysis from both OT and NT as per the scripture requirement for something to be established.

 

[Phoneman777]

Please provide both OT and NT support to that assertion. One thing I have noticed in scripture is that the Lord is very precise in both timing and who is involved in a prophecy. I would be interested to the details of your analysis from both OT and NT as per the scripture requirement for something to be established.

Sure: Revelation 13 says the First Beast will rise up as a religio-political power, but receive a deadly wound, which will be healed, and then all the world will "wonder after the Beast". That Beast is the papacy, according to the prophetic timeline that begins in Daniel and continues through Revelation. This interpretation was EXCLUSIVELY taught by Protestantism as sound Biblical exegesis for over THREE HUNDRED YEARS until just about 150 years ago Jesuit Futurism (which was formulated by the Jesuits to deflect the identity of the Antichrist away from the papacy because so many people were fleeing from it into Protestantism that the priests were running out of children to rape) began to spread throughout Protestantism and today most Protestants reject Historicism. A few of us here preach it faithfully, though.

 

[Copperhead]

Yes, let's allow God to have the last word:

"Verily, I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you (Literal Israel) and given to a nation (Spiritual Israel) bringing forth the fruits thereof".

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Fail. Did not meet the scripture standard of testimony of two witnesses... NT and OT... to support your assertion. Literal, physical Israel is still in play. Your assertion shows a confusion of election with justification. Two unique concepts that are not always interrelated.

Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Matthew 23:38-39 Look, your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I tell you, you will never see Me again until you say, ‘Baruch ha-ba b'shem Adonai. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

Romans 11:11-12 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Romans 11:28-29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Ezekiel 20:33-38 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord God.
37 “I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

 

[Copperhead]

Sure: Revelation 13 says the First Beast will rise up as a religio-political power, but receive a deadly wound, which will be healed, and then all the world will "wonder after the Beast". That Beast is the papacy, according to the prophetic timeline that begins in Daniel and continues through Revelation. This interpretation was EXCLUSIVELY taught by Protestantism as sound Biblical exegesis for over THREE HUNDRED YEARS until just about 150 years ago Jesuit Futurism (which was formulated by the Jesuits to deflect the identity of the Antichrist away from the papacy because so many people were fleeing from it into Protestantism that the priests were running out of children to rape) began to spread throughout Protestantism and today most Protestants reject Historicism. A few of us here preach it faithfully, though.

You are only providing your view, not the actual testimony of the two witnesses... NT and OT. There should be a clear, simple meaning in the texts to prove your point. That is the Golden Rule of Hermeneutics..... when the plain sense of a passage makes sense, then seek no other sense. Please provide passages that prove your assertion that who you are referring to is proven in the passages in a plain sense. YHVH is pretty specific in naming names regarding last days events. And while Revelation does use a lot of symbols and such, in all cases those symbols are described in the rest of scripture or within the context it self.

And what was taught is not the basis for sound exegesis. We all know that there has been some mistaught stuff over the centuries.

 

[Copperhead]

I'm a Navy Gulf War and Bosnian War vet, Avionics Tech - served on the U.S.S. Saratoga. Two deployments, one in the Red Sea and the other in the Adriatic. Got to see Israel, Jordon, Turkey, lotsa other places. Not the "glorious militarism" of Vietnam, but I was too young to go. And today, our young people have to run to safe spaces and grab crayons and coloring books if someone hurts their feelings. SMH

Yeah, times have changed. Not sure I understand your "glorious militarism" idea about Viet Nam. I don't want to misunderstand your meaning there. Would appreciate knowing what you meant in that statement.

 

[Copperhead]

Again...where does this leave the idea of an earthly 1000 year reign?

You are just having some fun with all of us... right?


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

And at the end of that 1000 year reign, Satan is again released to go deceive the nations.....

Revelation 20:7-8 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea

Psalms 2:1-3 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.

The nations, at the provocation of the released Satan, will want to throw off the rule of Messiah.

If one studies the Kingdom Parables of Matthew 13, one will see that the kingdom is not a perfect place, at least when it comes to the heart of man. There will be sin, death, and Yeshua will need to rule with a rod of iron to deal with anyone or any nation getting out of line. Zechariah 14 supports this also.

 

[Phoneman777]

Fail. Did not meet the scripture standard of testimony of two witnesses... NT and OT... to support your assertion.

Just because I didn't list every verse which proves my point doesn't mean they don't exist. I try to exercise a little brevity once and a while. God knows I struggle between the desire to be comprehensive but not weary the people with long winded posts.