Pre-Destination Or Free Will ???

[CoreIssue]

The flesh cannot discern the true Christ much less desire to repent from the sin it loves.

Calvinism versus Freewill

 

[CoreIssue]

Like I have already said you simply do not know or understand the power of the Gospel (probably never will). And if you yourself did not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you are still dead. No one is born again without FIRST obeying the Gospel.

I think in his pride he doesn't want to understand.

Notice how he get so emotional?

 

[Dave L]

Calvinism versus Freewill

How free were the Pharisees to believe in Christ when he told them the reason they did not believe was because he did not die for them (Jn 10:ff)?

 

[Dave L]

Like I have already said you simply do not know or understand the power of the Gospel (probably never will). And if you yourself did not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you are still dead. No one is born again without FIRST obeying the Gospel.

You do not believe this for a second even though I do. You think your self-righteous response saved you thereby robbing God of his glory and lavishing it on your "free choice". I know God must raise people from the dead before they can believe and respond.

 

[Dave L]

And, how can anyone respond without the free gift He offers?

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev. 22:17)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

"For you have been saved by (God's) grace through faith (in Christ);
and this did not come from you - it is God's gift.
Nor did it come from what you have done, lest anyone should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9

"For there is no deliverance through any other person,
nor has any other name on earth been given by which we must be saved."
Acts 4:12

"Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
John 4:10

"But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."
Romans 5:15

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23

Far be it from me to NOT to accept this awesome gift from Almighty God!

Notice, only believers (saved according to Jesus) respond to the offer.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Just a quick question here before I have to leave. Do Calvinists think that "receiving" the "free gift" of salvation is works??

Let’s look at it like this. In the non-Calvinist scheme, there’s a line ‘here’. To the left is a lost person, to the right is God. In this scheme, God will move towards the lost person, but will not cross that line, because if He does, He has violated their free will.

Now, this leaves the lost person having to reach out so far, so as to meet God at this line. If they don’t reach out, they remain lost. If they reach out they are saved.

There’s only one problem, the lost person is spiritually dead and is unable of reaching out. It’s like throwing a life preserver to a drowned man. It won’t save him. Why? He’s dead and unable to reach out for it. The person has to dive into the water, drag the man to shore, and do CPR. That’s what God does for His elect. They are drowned, unable to reach out to Him. He must dive in and save them, because they’re dead, unable to will themselves to life.

 

[CoreIssue]

How free were the Pharisees to believe in Christ when he told them the reason they did not believe was because he did not die for them (Jn 10:ff)?

And again you do not post the verse you are talking about.

Nowhere does it say they did not believe because he didn't die for them. Again you are rewriting verses to fit your Calvinism.

 

[Dave L]

And again you do not post the verse you are talking about.

Nowhere does it say they did not believe because he didn't die for them. Again you are rewriting verses to fit your Calvinism.

How about this?

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

 

[CoreIssue]

How about this?

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

Neither of those verses defend Calvinism.

It simply says they chose not to believe.

 

[Dave L]

Neither of those verses defend Calvinism.

It simply says they chose not to believe.

They don't need to. They only say Christ did not die for that group of pharisees and that is why they did not believe. Hint; you believe because Christ saved you. Had he not, you could not believe.

 

[CoreIssue]

They don't need to. They only say Christ did not die for that group of pharisees and that is why they did not believe. Hint; you believe because Christ saved you. Had he not, you could not believe.

False. They do not believe because they chose to reject Christ by free will.

 

[Dave L]

False. They do not believe because they chose to reject Christ by free will.

That's not what Jesus says. Read it again slowly.....

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

 

[CoreIssue]

That's not what Jesus says. Read it again slowly.....

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

Just want I said, they choose not to believe, they reject him and all he says.

 

[Nancy]

Let’s look at it like this. In the non-Calvinist scheme, there’s a line ‘here’. To the left is a lost person, to the right is God. In this scheme, God will move towards the lost person, but will not cross that line, because if He does, He has violated their free will.

Now, this leaves the lost person having to reach out so far, so as to meet God at this line. If they don’t reach out, they remain lost. If they reach out they are saved.

There’s only one problem, the lost person is spiritually dead and is unable of reaching out. It’s like throwing a life preserver to a drowned man. It won’t save him. Why? He’s dead and unable to reach out for it. The person has to dive into the water, drag the man to shore, and do CPR. That’s what God does for His elect. They are drowned, unable to reach out to Him. He must dive in and save them, because they’re dead, unable to will themselves to life.

Thank you for the reply but, I was really just looking for a yes or no kind of answer

 

[CoreIssue]

They don't need to. They only say Christ did not die for that group of pharisees and that is why they did not believe. Hint; you believe because Christ saved you. Had he not, you could not believe.

That is a Calvinistic statement.

 

[bbyrd009]

besides being a pious way to say nothing imo, yes
Jesus will not change your mind for you,
does not engage in mind control or anything close,
that is the god of those on tares I think
the ones who swear by "belief?"

 

[Dave L]

That is a Calvinistic statement.

It is Bible. Even Calvin missed this one and taught a universal atonement.

 

[CoreIssue]

It is Bible. Even Calvin missed this one and taught a universal atonement.

Not the Bible.

 

[Dave L]

Not the Bible.

It cannot be any more plain.

 

[Dave L]

Just want I said, they choose not to believe, they reject him and all he says.

Jesus says they did not believe because he did not die for them.