Pre-Destination Or Free Will ???

[Preacher4Truth]

It's a pretty powerful chapter. I can't get past the part that says God worketh ALL things according to the council of HIS will.

If we have free will and are not predestinates, how's he working all things according to his will?

Yes. None are free in any sense until in Christ; John 8:36 (note the context of enslavement to sin). None are saved via human will or decision; John 1:13; but by His will; James 1:18, we are unable; John 6:63; John 6:44; John 6:65.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I rethought my responses.

Romans 8 spells it out clearly.

God foreknew who would love. Those he foreknew he predestined all the way to glorification. Note it puts our putting our hope in him before the predestination.

Also notice hearing the gospel came first as well.

We were not sealed to Christ until we believe.

Most assuredly this is not Calvinism.

No matter how many times you adjust your position, which you deny when confronted on it, you still get it wrong at every turn.

It is hard to see truth when your god of free will and self block your view.

As I told you all along, you preach God saved you because of what you've done. You've said it again above, yet you deny it when you plainly state it.

Your errant view is not the Good News, it is not the Gospel of grace, it is meritorious salvation: God saved you "because," and in your case the "because" is he saw you would love him, so for that you merited salvation. Anyone honest, and thinks, can see your error.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

God in mercy elected a multitude of sinners to be saved.They did not want to repent or believe as the fall into sin and death has left them unable and unwilling by nature to do so.
That is why it is unmerited mercy from God to make rebel sinners willing to repent and believe.

 

[Nancy]

Just a quick question here before I have to leave. Do Calvinists think that "receiving" the "free gift" of salvation is works??

 

[Waiting on him]

Just a quick question here before I have to leave. Do Calvinists think that "receiving" the "free gift" of salvation is works??

I’m not Calvinist, but this is how it was with Christ
Psalm 22:9-10 KJV
[9] But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. [10] I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.


Tecarta BibleWould it be different with me?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Just a quick question here before I have to leave. Do Calvinists think that "receiving" the "free gift" of salvation is works??

Please provide Scripture for your argument about persons receiving this free gift, otherwise we will be in an exercise of futility. Let's go off of revealed truth, not presupposed conjecture.

 

[Stranger]

Hi,
Anyone educated on this bible verse that could explain it? would be appreciated, as it seems to clash with the concept of "free will" If God has already pre-destined by his choice those who are in Christ, then what's free will For?

EPHESIANS 1: 3-14
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Both election and the will of man are involved in salvation. It is all of God, of course, as He determined that man's will would be involved in this salvation experience. But, man's will is involved.

There are two verses that to me sum it all up very well.

(John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

(John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out."

Therefore one can know he is elect if he has come to Christ, for if one comes to Christ, He will not reject him.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

Just a quick question here before I have to leave. Do Calvinists think that "receiving" the "free gift" of salvation is works??

If salvation is contingent on it. Dead people (us in our fallen state) cannot do anything. God must save you giving you a new birth before you can respond to him.

 

[CoreIssue]

So what your saying is God has not automatically saved! anyone! without them first believing and having faith in him..?

Correct.

We must seek him and repent in faith through grace.

What confuses a lot of people is God foreknew who do so before anyone was born. Which is related in Romans 8.

 

[CoreIssue]

If salvation is contingent on it. Dead people (us in our fallen state) cannot do anything. God must save you giving you a new birth before you can respond to him.

That is not taught in the Bible.

 

[Dave L]

Correct.

We must seek him and repent in faith through grace.

What confuses a lot of people is God foreknew who do so before anyone was born. Which is related in Romans 8.

If he learnes anything from watching, he does not have perfect knowledge.

 

[CoreIssue]

No matter how many times you adjust your position, which you deny when confronted on it, you still get it wrong at every turn.

It is hard to see truth when your god of free will and self block your view.

As I told you all along, you preach God saved you because of what you've done. You've said it again above, yet you deny it when you plainly state it.

Your errant view is not the Good News, it is not the Gospel of grace, it is meritorious salvation: God saved you "because," and in your case the "because" is he saw you would love him, so for that you merited salvation. Anyone honest, and thinks, can see your error.

I haven't adjusted my position in any way.

 

[Dave L]

That is not taught in the Bible.

We were not dead in trespasses and sins?

 

[CoreIssue]

We were not dead in trespasses and sins?

Until we repent, yes.

 

[marks]

It's a pretty powerful chapter. I can't get past the part that says God worketh ALL things according to the council of HIS will.

If we have free will and are not predestinates, how's he working all things according to his will?

It is God's purpose and sovereign choice that man participate in his relationship with God, and therefore must either want to or not.

That's how I see it.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

I rethought my responses.

Romans 8 spells it out clearly.

God foreknew who would love. Those he foreknew he predestined all the way to glorification. Note it puts our putting our hope in him before the predestination.

Also notice hearing the gospel came first as well.

We were not sealed to Christ until we believe.

Most assuredly this is not Calvinism.

Hi CoreIssue,

I think it's very straightforward. All discussion about predestination needs to be based on the fact that it only applies AFTER God's foreknowledge. Leave that fact out, and end up in the weeds.

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Said purpose to be that Jesus would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters? Or to be the firstborn among certain brothers and sisters?

Did God purpose to "save all who would be willing to be saved"? Or did God purpose to "save a preselected group to the exclusion of others"?

This passage does not answer that.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

This is of course repeated from a Calvinist statement of faith. It is not Scripture, and should not be taken as such.

Myself, I don't find it very reasonable.

God makes men sin, but God's not responsible for their sin. God imposes on men's will, but God holds men responsible for God's imposition.

That makes no sense.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Enoch111]

God must save you giving you a new birth before you can respond to him.

This is completely FALSE and contradicts Scripture. The New Birth comes AFTER receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and repentance and faith come BEFORE that. No one is saved before they are saved. That is absurd (as is the rest of Five Point Calvinism).

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

SINNERS MUST REPENT BEFORE THE HOLY GHOST IS GIVEN
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [repentance and faith are always inseparable]

 

[marks]

Hi,
Anyone educated on this bible verse that could explain it? would be appreciated, as it seems to clash with the concept of "free will" If God has already pre-destined by his choice those who are in Christ, then what's free will For?

EPHESIANS 1: 3-14
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Hi Pianoworldstage,

Could you point to where exactly in this passage that God teaches us that He alone chooses who is to be "In Christ"?

Thank you, and much love!
Mark