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Featured Pre-Destination Or Free Will ???

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Pianoworldstage, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. Pianoworldstage

    Pianoworldstage New Member

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    Hi,
    Anyone educated on this bible verse that could explain it? would be appreciated, as it seems to clash with the concept of "free will" If God has already pre-destined by his choice those who are in Christ, then what's free will For?

    EPHESIANS 1: 3-14
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

    11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
     
  2. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    It's a pretty powerful chapter. I can't get past the part that says God worketh ALL things according to the council of HIS will.

    If we have free will and are not predestinates, how's he working all things according to his will?
     
  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I rethought my responses.

    Romans 8 spells it out clearly.

    God foreknew who would love. Those he foreknew he predestined all the way to glorification. Note it puts our putting our hope in him before the predestination.

    Also notice hearing the gospel came first as well.

    We were not sealed to Christ until we believe.

    Most assuredly this is not Calvinism.
     
  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    It is all part of his plan and we are incapable of understanding it.

    Romans 8 spells it out. Revelation shows how he uses unsafe for his purposes.

    God wants us to love him. But that requires free will otherwise it isn't love, it is programmed.
     
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  5. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    That's nutty! Predestination happens before the destination. That's why it's PRE destination! We can't hope and hear before being predestined to hope and hear. If so, then it really isn't a predestination for us to do so. It would be a post destination.
     
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    The Bible doesn't say that.

    The Holy Spirit speaks to saved and unsaved alike.

    The foreknowledge comes before predestination. So you're thinking has a problem.
     
  7. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    Scripture is clear, God is God, and he predestined some to salvation, or, as the text says, to be "in Christ," "in Him," "in the Beloved." This was according to his purpose and will, not according to our purposing or our will. If this were not the case, none would be saved as none are saved via human will or determination: John 1:13; John 6:63 &c. It is TRULY Soli Deo Gloria!!!
     
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  8. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 1 is another great passage...:)
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Post 7 is Calvinism.

    He neglected to say those not predestined for salvation are predestined for damnation. All on God's dice roll.

    The claim otherwise not be saved is false. Not found in the Bible.

    That is my comment and because of other threads on this issue are not going to help crank it up here as well. We do not need another thread on the subject.

    As well it would be off-topic.
     
  10. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    The Bible doesn't say what?

    Well that's a totally random thing to say.

    Did I say otherwise? Actually the Bible says whom he forknow he ALSO DID predestinate... It doesn't say he forknow then predestinated. He never specifies that and order of operation was given.

    In any sense, you cannot believe first, the be predestinated. You can't hear first the be predestinated. That's not how PREdestination works
     
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  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8 says that.
     
  12. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    That's the chapter I was referring to with "in Christ" &c, and following the OP which quoted it.
     
  13. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    It's a truly unanswerable doctrinal argument! :)
     
  14. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Yet many attempt to go against it.
     
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  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    God's sovereignty - albeit in complete harmony with human responsibility - is truly a wondrous panorama in Scripture! :)
     
  16. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    God has an eternal plan and purpose that is happening as we speak. Everything happens as God has purposed to save a multitude in Christ.

    Eph3;
    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


    Rom8;
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?

    Titus1:
    1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
     
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  17. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Wow, this has got to be the third or forth thread on this lately!

    Both predestination and freewill are simply ways of describing what men have trouble comprehending. Neither of which is the truth straight up.

    The problem is men who are born into the timeline of history have trouble thinking any other way. But time was created, and whether you want to consider it a part of the kingdom of God or apart from the kingdom of God, God did not create time and then jump in the middle of it never to be timeless again. So, with all the word of God, there are two context realities that cannot be mixed. Yes, there is the context of time and the history of the world. But completely separate, is the context of the kingdom of God. Which, if considered correctly would necessitate rightly dividing the word of truth in those two different contexts separately. All of which means that God's reality does not include predestination or free will, and would better be defined as pre-occurrence...just as it is written of "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world", that is...before time. If we are to know all truth, all things in scripture will come to be defined in this same way. Thus, where it is no lie on the part of inspired men to pen the truth from God by using words that do not tell the exact truth, it must be understood that God has created time to deliver all things gently and slowly, just as every parent does when telling their children the reality of the harder subjects of life.

    So...that was the children's version. But now we press on to maturity. Or should.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  18. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    From the 1689 confession of faith;
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
    ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
     
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  19. Pianoworldstage

    Pianoworldstage New Member

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    So what your saying is God has not automatically saved! anyone! without them first believing and having faith in him..?
     
  20. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Free Will and God's Sovereignty reconciled;

    A simple story about sovereignty and free will.

    A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid hops on the wagon, ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in to the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat wants to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and now the goat both choose to travel.

    People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on.


    London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession:Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

    “God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

    So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God uses to control us.

    This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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