Pre-Destination Or Free Will ???

[CoreIssue]

Hi CoreIssue,

I think it's very straightforward. All discussion about predestination needs to be based on the fact that it only applies AFTER God's foreknowledge. Leave that fact out, and end up in the weeds.

Much love!
mark

Calvinism is the weeds.

 

[Dave L]

This is completely FALSE and contradicts Scripture. The New Birth comes AFTER receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and repentance and faith come BEFORE that. No one is saved before they are saved. That is absurd (as is the rest of Five Point Calvinism).

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

SINNERS MUST REPENT BEFORE THE HOLY GHOST IS GIVEN
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [repentance and faith are always inseparable]

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Acts 16:14)

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)

 

[Enoch111]

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The context makes it clear that the eternal purpose of God mentioned here is in verse 10 -- that all the angelic hosts (principalities and powers in heavenly places) should know that the Church has been created by God to display the manifold wisdom of God. As Scripture says (1 Pet 1:12):

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

It will be in eternity that the angels will understand why God has glorified those who were sinners, because of what the Gospel has accomplished "with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven". The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and this is something which Calvinists don't understand, or don't wish to understand. Saving faith is generated by the Gospel (Rom 1:17).

 

[Enoch111]

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Acts 16:14)

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)

And since Scripture does not contradict Scripture, Lydia too was pricked in her heart by the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit while Paul preached the Gospel. As are all those who hear the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

This is completely FALSE and contradicts Scripture. The New Birth comes AFTER receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and repentance and faith come BEFORE that. No one is saved before they are saved. That is absurd (as is the rest of Five Point Calvinism).

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

SINNERS MUST REPENT BEFORE THE HOLY GHOST IS GIVEN
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [repentance and faith are always inseparable]

Dead people cannot believe or repent unless raised from the dead in the new birth.

 

[Dave L]

Until we repent, yes.

How can dead people repent?

 

[CoreIssue]

You do not understand the difference between physical and spiritual death in the Bible.

 

[Dave L]

You do not understand the difference between physical and spiritual death in the Bible.

Death is death whether spiritual or physical.

 

[CoreIssue]

Death is death whether spiritual or physical.

Again you show your ignorance.

 

[Dave L]

Again you show your ignorance.

How can something dead do anything?

 

[CoreIssue]

More ignorance.

 

[Dave L]

More ignorance.

Dead = dead. = smart enough to know that.

 

[marks]

How can something dead do anything?

How could Samuel who was dead chat with King Saul?

How could Jesus who was dead preach to the spirits in prison?

How can the dead, great and small, stand before a great white throne?

Who could dead Lazarus lean on Abraham's chest, Abraham also being dead?

Adam was dead, but continued to work the land and raise a family.

Aw, shucks, we were all dead, but still doing stuff. Once we leave this body, we'll be physically dead. But we won't be inactive. Same is true for believers and unbelievers.

Death is separation but not inactivity.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

How can dead people repent?

By exchanging the mind of the flesh for the Mind of Christ, which is what metanoia, repentance, refers to.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Dave L]

How could Samuel who was dead chat with King Saul?

How could Jesus who was dead preach to the spirits in prison?

How can the dead, great and small, stand before a great white throne?

Who could dead Lazarus lean on Abraham's chest, Abraham also being dead?

Adam was dead, but continued to work the land and raise a family.

Aw, shucks, we were all dead, but still doing stuff. Once we leave this body, we'll be physically dead. But we won't be inactive. Same is true for believers and unbelievers.

Death is separation but not inactivity.

Much love!
Mark

We are not talking about witches. We are talking about needing to be born again because we are dead and cannot believe.

 

[Dave L]

By exchanging the mind of the flesh for the Mind of Christ, which is what metanoia, repentance, refers to.

Much love!
Mark

The flesh cannot discern the true Christ much less desire to repent from the sin it loves.

 

[farouk]

Hi,
Anyone educated on this bible verse that could explain it? would be appreciated, as it seems to clash with the concept of "free will" If God has already pre-destined by his choice those who are in Christ, then what's free will For?

EPHESIANS 1: 3-14
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

This is truly a great passage; clearly in the salvation of the sinner all the glory must go to God in Christ.

 

[farouk]

The flesh cannot discern the true Christ much less desire to repent from the sin it loves.

God by His grace needs to make people willing in order for this to happen. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Psalm 110.3).

 

[Nancy]

If salvation is contingent on it. Dead people (us in our fallen state) cannot do anything. God must save you giving you a new birth before you can respond to him.

And, how can anyone respond without the free gift He offers?

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev. 22:17)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

"For you have been saved by (God's) grace through faith (in Christ);
and this did not come from you - it is God's gift.
Nor did it come from what you have done, lest anyone should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9

"For there is no deliverance through any other person,
nor has any other name on earth been given by which we must be saved."
Acts 4:12

"Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
John 4:10

"But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."
Romans 5:15

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23

Far be it from me to NOT to accept this awesome gift from Almighty God!

 

[Enoch111]

Dead people cannot believe or repent unless raised from the dead in the new birth.

Like I have already said you simply do not know or understand the power of the Gospel (probably never will). And if you yourself did not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you are still dead. No one is born again without FIRST obeying the Gospel.