The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Episkopos]

Like any man-made doctrine...total depravity has a good point...but goes too far. If this extremist doctrine were true...there would be no need for free will or a judgment. We could not be held responsible for the evil we in fact do...as it would be seen as the animals who do things by nature.

Of course no one can be holy without God making them so. The election of grace is all God. This is the way of saints. And yet after that divine calling and empowerment, the would-be saint must still choose God in the moment.

So then a greater gifting brings MORE responsibility. The saints will be judged harder...as they who teach others also must face a harder judgment....more exacting.

God's direct intervention is like a fire.

But there are spin-offs to fire...namely heat and light. This heat is to fire as righteousness is to holiness. Many people will turn to righteousness because of the presence of holiness...just as many will be warmed by a fire. many will walk in the light ...indirectly from God...through the saint in whom Christ is living.

The saints are IN the fire. They are the fuel to the fire. As such these are the light of the world.

But many will be warmed and remain by the fire. These are the righteous...who are many. The saints are the bride of Christ...and the righteous are the guests. The saints rule with Christ from Zion and are priests to God and kings over the nations...and the righteous are in the nations that are saved.

Many are called, few are chosen. So then God selects His elect as fuel to a fire that leads many to salvation by example. We all have choices to make...and we each are given free will to stay the course we are given...or not.

 

[farouk]

Nancy,

[Antinomianists ]
Could you explain what this is? I have no idea what this is.

Sinning, that grace may abound. (Romans 6.1)

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I understand it enough to know Calvinists believe “predestination” means most don’t get a chance to buy a ticket in God’s Eternal Life Lotto.

Lucifer worshipers believe the EXACT same thing: that they are among a “special” select few chosen to be “illuminated” by him while the rest of us are regarded as “undeserved” and “profane” - and the result is a bunch of “entitlement mentality” control freaks running the political, economic, entertainment, and religious world who look down at the rest of us with both disdain for even existing and license to exploit us to death.

Amazing how Satan can employ the same lie to deceive both those within and without the church, isn’t it?

Sorry you lack a total understanding of Divine truth. I say that because once again profane thoughts about the biblical God should not be posted.
I give you credit for posting your ideas and trying to take a stand based on what your current ideas are

Where there is life there is hope. If you want to learn we would help you. If you want to stay ignorant we will let you go that also.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Sinning, that grace may abound. (Romans 6.1)

Nancy used this word I was hoping she could explain it to me.

 

[farouk]

Nancy used this word I was hoping she could explain it to me.

This is the generally understood meaning, anyway.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

This is the generally understood meaning, anyway.

Look where she posted this...then you.might know why I am asking her.

 

[farouk]

Look where she posted this...then you.might know why I am asking her.

Sorry; this thread is already looking a bit like the Mueller Report; everyone seems to pick and choose what he or she wants to believe and uses bits to 'prove' what they want to read into it....

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Sorry; this thread is already looking a bit like the Mueller Report; everyone seems to pick and choose what he or she wants to believe and uses bits to 'prove' what they want to read into it....

No problem...I believe she has combined 2 different words, also believe she has no idea what either word is.I await her response

 

[Phoneman777]

There you go, attaboy, linking up Lucifer with Calvinists again!

It doesn't matter that all your accusations are false to you, doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter to you that you don't know what total depravity means either. Yours is like a preacher that reads a verse then preaches about nothing contained in that verse, it just serves a purpose in order to slander.

You're doing a bang up job as long as you avoid Scripture, make up your own definitions, make up your own facts, and libel others.

Fact is Scripture teaches that not all will be saved, not all will hear, and that some will, without hearing, be justly condemned as sinners. Your issue isn't really with us, it's with God.

Furthermore we could pull your same accusations on you, showing your thinking is flawed and inconsistent. Nowhere in Scripture are all going to hear, or get a chance to be saved, or vote themselves into heaven. Here you go: Your belief then, since not in Scripture must be a belief of you "enlightened ones" while us "underserved" and "profane" Calvinists are left to hell.

One last thing, you used the word "undeserved" in a sense that you think people "deserve" heaven. Guess what? They don't. Your entire premise is libelous, flawed, filled with false definitions and false accusations, but that won't mean you'll end doing it.

Calvinism is a theological “safe-space” where church goers flee to escape from their responsibility to “choose you this day whom ye will serve.”

 

[Phoneman777]

Hey @"ByGrace" are you going to tell him off for being unfriendly, seeing he is calling us the same as devil worshippers, or are you going to give him a pass as he agrees with much of your theology?

I’m pretty sure I didn’t call anyone a devil worshipper. Deceived by the same satanic logic whereby Luciferians are deceived? Absolutely. But not devil worshipers.

 

[Phoneman777]

They are the idolaters who worship their (mythical) free will more than God. Let someone attack the divinity of the Christ and its crickets. Let someone say there is no free will and they attack like a swarm of bees.

In fact, @Phoneman777 said the Christ laid aside His divinity, and nary a rebuke from them.

If Christ had not laid aside His divinity and overcome sin in the strength of His God, Satan would have the ultimate evidence to condemn God as unjust for demanding man attain the same perfection Calvinism’s “divinely-advantaged” Jesus attained.

Come now, let us reason together - Why would He have to “learn obedience” if obedience for Him was already as involuntary a function as His breathing or heartbeat?

 

[Phoneman777]

To @"ByGrace" unfriendly means those who are dismantling the beliefs of others by using Scripture, while being attacked by the same with libel and false accusations. Seems to be a trait here among their ilk, this misdefining everything.

Just like your emotionally charged tirade rebuttal that was totally devoid of argument?

 

[Phoneman777]

Since when have those declaring themselves to be in God's kingdom not hated when they heard God's word being declared to them? They've always liked the smooth things, to think of God only in terms they like, and in terms that made them feel good about themselves. Preach what God really says and they tear into you. Same thing since the beginning so no surprise here.

What slander? I think you’re confusing that with “stinging truth” - so far, not ONE of you has offered a successful refutation of my assessment of Calvinism as comparable to the same “exclusivity religion” mindset by which Satan ensnares his devotees.

Lotsa indignation and outrage but no argument to the contrary which - along with slander - is exactly the response expected by those to whom Socrates was referring.

 

[Dave L]

What slander? I think you’re confusing that with “stinging truth” - so far, not ONE of you has offered a successful refutation of my assessment of Calvinism as comparable to the same “exclusivity religion” mindset by which Satan ensnares his devotees.

Lotsa indignation and outrage but no argument to the contrary which - along with slander - is exactly the response expected by those to whom Socrates was referring.

Why do you think people are not totally depraved when scripture says we are born speaking lies? And there's not one who does good and seeks after righteousness? And then asks how can a corrupt tree produce good fruit?

 

[farouk]

Why do you think people are not totally depraved when scripture says we are born speaking lies? And there's not one who does good and seeks after righteousness? And then asks how can a corrupt tree produce good fruit?

Ephesians 2 is pivotal, also...

 

[Waiting on him]

Why do you think people are not totally depraved when scripture says we are born speaking lies? And there's not one who does good and seeks after righteousness? And then asks how can a corrupt tree produce good fruit?

I believe many Christians live life in a deluded state. The reason I say this is because I have a friend who comes to visit from time to time who is a professing Christian, and when he and his wife visit it’s always the same subject, I need to be attending church, and talks of all the adultry in the world and homosexuals and all the pornographic material. Crazy thing is she’s some other mans wife. Their totaly oblivious.

Many have not had their sin shown to them. If they had they wouldn’t be so puffed up, so vain.

 

[Enoch111]

Why do you think people are not totally depraved when scripture says we are born speaking lies?

According to your misguided belief, totally depraved means total inability to respond to Christ, respond to the Gospel or do any good deed.

According to Scripture though, the "totally depraved" thief (malefactor could mean much more, an out and out criminal, one who does harm or evil to others) on the cross repented while crucified, and then believed wholeheartedly on the Lord Jesus Christ, including the belief that He would have a LITERAL KINGDOM on earth (unlike you).

 

[Laish]

According to your misguided belief, totally depraved means total inability to respond to Christ, respond to the Gospel or do any good deed.

According to Scripture though, the "totally depraved" thief (malefactor could mean much more, an out and out criminal, one who does harm or evil to others) on the cross repented while crucified, and then believed wholeheartedly on the Lord Jesus Christ, including the belief that He would have a LITERAL KINGDOM on earth (unlike you).

Sorry that’s a miss . May I suggest reading up on the subject. I suggest a Reformed site or book that use the scriptures side by side with what Reformed folks believe. Not so much as to get ya to be reformed ( that would be cool , but that’s not my point ) but to give you a balanced look at what is believed by Reformed folks.
That is what I do. If I want to understand the synergistic point of view concerning salvation I check out folks that have that opinion. I don’t go to just Reformed apologetics sites . We all have our biases it’s sadly our nature for the most part. It often spills over in apologetic sites. Yea it requires a bit more leg work but it’s usually worth it .
Hopefully happy reading.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Nancy]

Nancy,

[Antinomianists ]
Could you explain what this is? I have no idea what this is.

Sorry, just now seeing this...it's just those who believe they can ignore or have no use of God's moral laws because salvation comes by grace, through faith. I myself do believe that salvation DOES come by grace through faith but, I would never dream of disregarding Gods laws, but, without His Spirit within us, we would not see our sin as He does. You could also just Google it, lol.

 

[Nancy]

No problem...I believe she has combined 2 different words, also believe she has no idea what either word is.I await her response

I had posted in reply to Phoneman's post #16.
What is it you say I have no idea about? What 2 words have I combined?
antinomian
noun
an·ti·no·mi·an | \ ˌan-ti-ˈnō-mē-ən \
Definition of antinomian
1: one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace (see GRACE entry 1sense 1a) the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation
2: one who rejects a socially established morality