Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

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Dave L

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I'll agree that Paul the apostle was a Pharisee, Philippians 3:5 (yes, he continued to believe in a literal resurrection after becoming a Christian).
But he was not oneness by any means.

“Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,” (2 Thessalonians 2:16)
 

justbyfaith

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But he was not oneness by any means.

“Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,” (2 Thessalonians 2:16)
Paul did indeed have the same view of the Trinity that I am espousing.

'and' can be translated 'even'. It is the Greek word 'kai'.

Otherwise you have this very verse saying that Jesus is not God, as evidenced by the preposition 'and'.
 
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Dave L

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Paul did indeed have the same view of the Trinity that I am espousing.

'and' can be translated 'even'. It is the Greek word 'kai'.

Otherwise you have this very verse saying that Jesus is not God, as evidenced by the preposition 'and'.
You are not in line with the rest of scripture which makes Paul, if he agrees with you, to say something he does not.
 

justbyfaith

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But as soon as the father changes into the son, God ceases to exist.
We have already shown you that this reasoning is faulty. God by virtue of the fact that He inhabits eternity, will not cease to inhabit eternity in the descending; for it is the nature of eternity that if anyone dwells in it, they dwell in it eternally.

But apparently this understanding is too esoteric for you to wrap your mind around.

Nevertheless, if you will think on what eternity and the infinite means, you might be able to see that in the descending, Jesus (even the Father) did not cease to inhabit eternity.
 

justbyfaith

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You are not in line with the rest of scripture which makes Paul, if he agrees with you, to say something he does not.
You are going to have to elaborate on this; because I simply don't see what you are saying...I find that the scripture substantiates my view of things.
 

amadeus

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Abba Father I lift up our friend @amadeus to You and I ask You to bless him right now with the knowledge of Your grace and mercy and the fact that there is no pressure being applied for him to somehow be able to understand everything that is You. If You want to show Him the answers in Your timing then by all means You are able to do so Lord; but we know that You are a God of grace and that it is not our knowledge but our love that defines us as Christians. If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, the same is known of Him. So Father, fill @amadeus with Your love today and please bless Him with an extra dose of Your presence today as He relaxes and spends time with You in a slightly different way...not in pressuring himself to understand something in Your word but relaxing in Your holy presence. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

That prayer may have been inadequate for all I know, perhaps off-target. But I thought I would throw in something as a prayer (since you requested prayer) to let you know that you are loved by the Lord and also by certain of us who come here to minister. Again, perhaps off-target; for I believe that you know that you are loved, and perhaps don't need to hear it from anyone on here. But just in case it is the right word, I did not want to neglect to say it to you.
As you may know I have been out with a physical and mental problem for a couple of days and just now read this. Thank you very kindly for remembering me in prayer. Hopefully I will be around here again regularly. Give God the glory!
 

Jon Mathews

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1 Corinthians 11:19 says, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

There is a heresy called Tritheism that defends itself by calling the opposing emphasis on the Oneness of God heresy; even though the one who is emphasizing that Oneness is not denying that God is distinctly three Persons (and yet One).

In Acts 24:14 Paul the apostle said, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets.

The true Trinity is held to be heretical by those who think that they believe in the Trinity and yet in all reality they believe in Tritheism. It should be clear from the holy scriptures that there is one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.

Mark 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Notice here that the Lord is God. And also, we have the following statement in Matthew 11:25:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.

Again, scripture teaches that there is one Lord...

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now here there is one God, and a Lord separate from Him, if the Lord isn't God (the Father). However, we have already seen that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29) and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. This one Lord is the God who created us, Jesus Christ; and I contend here faithfully that He is the Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.


Jesus is the Lord:

1 Corinthians 12:3,
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

There is one Lord:

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

That Lord is the Father:

Matthew 11:25,
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21,
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

If anyone does not have the Holy Ghost, they do not belong to Christ:

Romans 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost:

1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The Father is the Lord:

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.


There is one Lord:

Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So I think that I have made it clear that there is a Oneness between the Father and the Son:

John 10:30,
I and my Father are one.

It should be clear that both Jesus and the Father are the one Lord of scripture.

The problem with most who are debating Onesess vs Trinitarianism vs Tritheism is that the Godhead is like a 3-dimentional God trying to be described by a 2-dimensional man. Unless God open their eyes to His Nature, they can only take 2D slices of the 3D God. And depending on how you slice Him, He can appear to be 1, 3, or BOTH. It's like 2 surgeons who take their own 2D image of a brain from different angles.. The 2D images may appear different, even though they are of same 3D brain. When God reveals Himself to you, you can understand the 3D God, and from that point on, you'll never argue over which 2D image of God is correct.
 
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101G

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The problem with most who are debating Onesess vs Trinitarianism vs Tritheism is that the Godhead is like a 3-dimentional God trying to be described by a 2-dimensional man. Unless God open their eyes to His Nature, they can only take 2D slices of the 3D God. And depending on how you slice Him, He can appear to be 1, 3, or BOTH. It's like 2 surgeons who take their own 2D image of a brain from different angles.. The 2D images may appear different, even though they are of same 3D brain. When God reveals Himself to you, you can understand the 3D God, and from that point on, you'll never argue over which 2D image of God is correct.
not saying that you're right or wrong, but the bible don't say this. he said, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them".

if what you say is true, then we must be 3d also. and to understand God, the bible again eliminates any 3D or 2D image. for, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them".
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

so there is no excuse to know and understand God, that's bible. but foolish men, make it a mystery. not God.

PICJAG.
 

farouk

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@justbyfaith : Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three distinct Persons are seen in Matthew 28, John's Gospel, Romans 8, John's First Epistle. They cannot be seen as one Person; the many references are to Three Persons. John makes it clear, when the Son goes to His Father, and when the Father and the Son each send the Spirit, that three distinct Persons are interacting.
 
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justbyfaith

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@justbyfaith : Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three distinct Persons are seen in Matthew 28, John's Gospel, Romans 8, John's First Epistle. They cannot be seen as one Person; the many references are to Three Persons. John makes it clear, when the Son goes to His Father, and when the Father and the Son each send the Spirit, that three distinct Persons are interacting.
James 2:19 tells us that we do well to believe in one God.

Ephesians 4:5 tells us that there is one Lord. This Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3) and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).

One Lord in three Persons? Three Persons ruling as one Lord...a Lord by definition would be one Person.
 

farouk

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James 2:19 tells us that we do well to believe in one God.

Ephesians 4:5 tells us that there is one Lord. This Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3) and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).

One Lord in three Persons? Three Persons ruling as one Lord...a Lord by definition would be one Person.
I do not see your extrapolation as logical.

Where the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit (in John's Gospel), they are not sending themselves but Another Person. Where the Son goes to the Father, He is not going to Himself, but to the Father, Another Person.
 

Enoch111

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One Lord in three Persons? Three Persons ruling as one Lord...a Lord by definition would be one Person.
So we have another Anti-Trinitarian here? Do you even understand the Mystery of God and Christ? The LORD God Almighty is indeed the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.

"Justbyfaith" should mean that you also accept this as just-by-faith. Otherwise you cannot be justbyfaith.
 

justbyfaith

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I do not see your extrapolation as logical.

Where the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit (in John's Gospel), they are not sending themselves but Another Person. Where the Son goes to the Father, He is not going to Himself, but to the Father, Another Person.

In John's gospel, when Jesus says He is going to send the Holy Spirit...in the same breath, He says, I will not leave you as orphans...I will come to you.

The Father inhabits eternity, while the Son is the Father descended to the earth. When He ascends back into eternity, He ascends to His former self, since His former self did not cease to inhabit eternity when He descended. It is impossible for someone who inhabits eternity to vacate it.
 
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