The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Preacher4Truth]

That's not "freely choosing", that's more like running a program.

How sad and oblivious to revealed truth the above is! Not only that, it is literally a mockery of the working of God in man. I urge you to tread lightly.

Here's "the code" for "the program;" Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 13:21; Ezekiel 36:27 and note carefully Psalm 23:2. Or, you could be "free," which is bondage to sin without the Spirit residing and working within (Note John 8:36 and its context) because without God doing these things within us, causing us to bear fruit in joy, that's where we'd be.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

None have the ability to come to Christ, he stated this concisely, and for reason at many points. Note Ephesians 2:1, and especially Ephesians 2:4... "But God..."

If we follow your logic above consistently, just as you blame man for not choosing, or what have you, you end up glorying in man because some did. Since this is the end result, your thinking and gospel understanding are errant and man-centered.

This is, of course, contrary to the Gospel.

Again, note carefully 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Soli Deo Gloria.

This is very good.
I don't get into this argument so much because I clearly see that neither side has got all of it quite yet, but I absolutely see your point about winding up in a place where you're glorying in man.

Besides which, men who are born blind don't just choose to see.

 

[Dave L]

That's not "freely choosing", that's more like running a program.

But if God doesn't direct your steps who does?
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

 

[Dave L]

"Salvation is of the Jews" doesn't mean "limited to only Abraham's bloodline descendants" - it means "provided for the world through Abraham's bloodline descendants".

We [believing gentiles] were grafted into Israel when God removed the unbelievers.

 

[Dave L]

So, God intentionally compelled Satan to rebel then?

God created evil for his glory. We cannot know his mercy, sovereignty, justice, righteousness etc., apart from sin.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

 

[Dave L]

Why would God deliberately cause someone to choose the Lake of Fire when from Genesis to Revelation He pleads with the wicked -- ALL WICKED -- to turn from the way of destruction?

God would not be good if he did not punish sinners. He would not be merciful if he didn't save some.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God created evil for his glory. We cannot know his mercy, sovereignty, justice, righteousness etc., apart from sin.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

God did not create evil to show His glory. God did not create evil. That's a bad, bad translation.

 

[Dave L]

God did not create evil to show His glory. God did not create evil.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As I said, bad, bad translation.

 

[Dave L]

As I said, bad, bad translation.

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Now you're just not making sense at all.

 

[Dave L]

Now you're just not making sense at all.

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (Romans 9:22–24)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You can't just take one verse and fly around haphazardly with it. You have to take the verses in tension to it and work them in or otherwise, as our friend epi says, you're a halfbaked cake.

 

[bbyrd009]

I've heard of the Sea of Reeds. That account only serves to make the story of the Exodus more outstanding and God even more to be glorified - means He would have had to drown that entire Egyptian army in only a few inches of water LOL

Hmm, wasn't aware it was that shallow? But I'm pretty sure the "reeds" are the functional part anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

So, God intentionally compelled Satan to rebel then?

Yes, spirits must first be personified to start all that nonsense imo

 

[Dave L]

You can't just take one verse and fly around haphazardly with it. You have to take the verses in tension to it and work them in or otherwise, as our friend epi says, you're a halfbaked cake.

Here's why God created all to be just as it is.

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” (Ephesians 3:9–10)

 

[bbyrd009]

As I said, bad, bad translation.

? ok. I'll catch up to your interp there later, gotta run right now.
But really? God did not create evil?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

So, God intentionally compelled Satan to rebel then?

Did God intentionally incite David to number Israel and then judge the nation due to this? Yes, he did; 2 Samuel 24. What did he do with the Assyrians against Israel, then to Assyria afterward? These are hard truths, yet are true and show the glory of God. There is also what he did to set up Absalom as well; 2 Samuel 17:14.

And more than that, what of his determined will to do what he did to his Son; Isaiah 53:10; Acts 2:23?

These are some of the things God has done, and is free to do, which our minds being finite struggle with. Some struggle with it because they deem God as unfair, and the reasoning behind it is they think too highly of man and self and don't think God is allowed as Judge to exercise justice at will. Well guess what everyone? He's God.

Many spend their time trying to get God "off the hook" for this, and for the fact he elects and predestines to save whom he wills. He doesn't need anyone to get him off the hook, he desires for you and all who name him as LORD to believe and trust him.

 

[Phoneman777]

How sad and oblivious to revealed truth the above is! Not only that, it is literally a mockery of the working of God in man. I urge you to tread lightly.

Here's "the code" for "the program;" Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 13:21; Ezekiel 36:27 and note carefully Psalm 23:2. Or, you could be "free," which is bondage to sin without the Spirit residing and working within (Note John 8:36 and its context) because without God doing these things within us, causing us to bear fruit in joy, that's where we'd be.

Which do you prefer, hearing "I love you" from someone because they choose to say it or because they're forced to say it?

 

[SovereignGrace]

1 John 2 New International Version (NIV)
2 My dear children, <--- (Born again believers) I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
...but also for..." <--- Unbelievers. ALL people. Not all will receive Him though and He knows who will (has) or will not (has not) receive Him.

First off, atoning sacrifice, propitiation in other versions, means God’s wrath has been appeased, satiated, placated, satisfied. In other words, He is satisfied with the Christ’s work He was sent to accomplish. Now, if everybody whoever lived sins were propitiated, then everybody whoever lived sins are forgiven and everybody ends up saved.