The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Nancy]

Well those that get the opportunity to hear the gospel only half will become Christians. That’s if you count every group from Catholics Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons. You remove any group you go to under 25% of the worlds population.
What really sad is that 40% of the worlds population will never hear about Jesus as seen in the scriptures. Yea 40 % won’t have the opportunity right off the bat .
Blessings
Bill

Romans 1:19-20
"19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Romans 2:14,15
" 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"

 

[Laish]

Romans 1:19-20
"19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Romans 2:14,15
" 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"

Hello Nancy what I was answering was your post here .

Yes it is ,unfortunately, too many will refuse this free gift of God.

I was responding about the free gift from God (the grace God has shown us through the Gospel) .
It is presupposed that we are guilty without excuse .
My point is what about those that do not know about the free gift ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[SovereignGrace]

I cannot agree with this at all. Those who were dead before Jesus Sacrifice, were looking forward, with faith in their savior. If they had no faith in His coming then, I would say they were not saved. Only those with faith in His coming were saved.
BTW-I do know what "atoning sacrifice" and "propitiation" means. And, that awesome gift was to be offered to ALL people. I will never believe TULIP...especially the L and I. Sorry SG, these are my thoughts and beliefs on the matter.
God Bless,
nancy

This is why I was reluctant in responding to your previous post. In fact, I wasn't planning on responding to it because I knew you would brush it aside. But when someone said they noticed no one had responded, I decided to, knowing the outcome before posting it. Thanks for your civil manner, it hasn't went unnoticed or unappreciated.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't usually decide to talk about a thing like this without reference to bible verses, though I am looser with my references And paraphrases. And I will talk about it with bible verses at some point, but I can't help thinking that we have moved backwards in some atrocious way if, in our zeal to only believe what the bible says, we can read a verse like the one given by dave and say, well there it is, God creates evil, rather than say, this obviously cannot be so, so the problem must be in my understanding.

Its too MUCH zeal, and I never thought I'd hear those words from my own mouth.

This has given me a sick headache. I just want someone to think about this and at least admit that they don't at all like the thought. I want someone to think and see and admit that the very thought of it makes them sick and queasy...

i understand your anguish there, and I wouldn't confuse that with "God is Good, all the time" or God is love so much as maybe recognize that "evil" is a subjective judgement made by you, as much as we resist this idea.

"The tree of knowledge of good and evil" is a tree of knowledge iow, not a tree of evil, and not an evil tree, imo. You might contrast this with our basic pov of the tree, which most would evinced thinking of it as "evil." I don't mean to say that there is no objective def of Evil, but that we are not qualified to judge that, iow what I might call evil God very well might not?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes it is ,unfortunately, too many will refuse this free gift of God.

They get what they give too I guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Well those that get the opportunity to hear the gospel only half will become Christians. That’s if you count every group from Catholics Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons. You remove any group you go to under 25% of the worlds population.
What really sad is that 40% of the worlds population will never hear about Jesus as seen in the scriptures. Yea 40 % won’t have the opportunity right off the bat .
Blessings
Bill

Let's not forget that of those who do, most become twice the sons of hell anyway right
they immediately start believing they might become Immortal, and Go Up to Heaven When The Die, etc?

 

[Mjh29]

 

[Phoneman777]

What is the purpose of opening the heart ?
Blessings
Bill

Give people an opportunity to see their sin, their need for a Savior, and the choice to make Him Savior and King. Unless God arrests the sinner's attention, they will never know the bondage in whcih they are trapped.

 

[Phoneman777]

Please instead of your unproven assertions, inflammatory non sequitur political remarks, and philosophising provide Scripture that says God opens all hearts, the heart of every single person ever. I can guess which Scripture you'll use that doesn't say nor imply this, but I'll allow you to provide it.

Try sticking with Scripture instead of the above?

Honestly, your remarks in quotations are quite leftist and "snow flake" in essence. They, as well as you, DEMAND all get the same "fairness." You're showing you are a Romans 9:20 person which is leftist snow flake ideology personified.

It's called "reasoning together". Since you refuse the believe the plain Word of God, a different approach is necessary. For instance, God says "whosoever believeth shall not persish" - there isn't the least intimation of limitation except that which Calvinists subjectively impose. It's not there. The context of "whosoever" is "the world" - the entire world and all it's inhabitants.

You can dislike what I say as much as you want, but until you can prove me wrong, I will continue to say it - that Calvinism is nothing but a Satanic doctrine meant to deceive Christians in the same way Luciferian societies deceive their heathen initiates: by convincing them they are "the specially chosen" they are afforded a sense of entitlement at the expense of the "profane". Maybe you'd be happy with a robot doggy wagging his tail as fast as you programmed him to when you come home, but I prefer the real deal.

 

[Nancy]

It's called "reasoning together". Since you refuse the believe the plain Word of God, a different approach is necessary. For instance, God says "whosoever believeth shall not persish" - there isn't the least intimation of limitation except that which Calvinists subjectively impose. It's not there. The context of "whosoever" is "the world" - the entire world and all it's inhabitants.

You can dislike what I say as much as you want, but until you can prove me wrong, I will continue to say it - that Calvinism is nothing but a Satanic doctrine meant to deceive Christians in the same way Luciferian societies deceive their heathen initiates: by convincing them they are "the specially chosen" they are afforded a sense of entitlement at the expense of the "profane". Maybe you'd be happy with a robot doggy wagging his tail as fast as you programmed him to when you come home, but I prefer the real deal.

I don't know about you Phoneman, but it seems that those who believe this doctrine are almost happy that most will burn in Hell. And think that God is not powerful enough to show His Glory without arbitrarily creating, intentionally, specific people for Hell...no choice, no chance.
It is a bit disturbing though, to detect a certain glee because of folks being sent to hell. Cold, hopeless, dark doctrine IMHO.

 

[brakelite]

God would not be good if he did not punish sinners.

If, as many believe, people sin without any option to do otherwise, even suggesting as above that God created evil and therefore instigated the entire rebellion, and then as you say punish sinners, the God you describe is not good. If man is not responsible for sin, not even his own, then he is no more worthy of punishment than a vegan should punish a lion for devouring an antelope.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I don't know about you Phoneman, but it seems that those who believe this doctrine are almost happy that most will burn in Hell. And think that God is not powerful enough to show His Glory without arbitrarily creating, intentionally, specific people for Hell...no choice, no chance.
It is a bit disturbing though, to detect a certain glee because of folks being sent to hell. Cold, hopeless, dark doctrine IMHO.

It's really sad in your misunderstandings of the Gospel, God and Scripture that you'd make such a low jab, libel, and falsely accuse as you've done.

 

[Dave L]

If, as many believe, people sin without any option to do otherwise, even suggesting as above that God created evil and therefore instigated the entire rebellion, and then as you say punish sinners, the God you describe is not good. If man is not responsible for sin, not even his own, then he is no more worthy of punishment than a vegan should punish a lion for devouring an antelope.

God tested Adam under perfect conditions as our representative (Romans 5). So when he flunked, we all did and as a result we can do noting for the right motive = sin. Even our best works are sin. This is why some groups need the law to hold them in line.

 

[tabletalk]

It's called "reasoning together". Since you refuse the believe the plain Word of God, a different approach is necessary. For instance, God says "whosoever believeth shall not persish" - there isn't the least intimation of limitation except that which Calvinists subjectively impose. It's not there. The context of "whosoever" is "the world" - the entire world and all it's inhabitants.

You can dislike what I say as much as you want, but until you can prove me wrong, I will continue to say it - that Calvinism is nothing but a Satanic doctrine meant to deceive Christians in the same way Luciferian societies deceive their heathen initiates: by convincing them they are "the specially chosen" they are afforded a sense of entitlement at the expense of the "profane". Maybe you'd be happy with a robot doggy wagging his tail as fast as you programmed him to when you come home, but I prefer the real deal.

If you are born-again, you are "the specially chosen".

 

[Waiting on him]

I guess God didn’t chose the nation Israel. That wouldn’t be fair of him.
Guess they chose Him. Yes maybe this is why the Ishmaels group was so mad, just wasn’t fair of God

 

[brakelite]

when he flunked, we all did

Ezek. 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Dave L]

Ezek. 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are confusing civil law with God's judgement on Adam and his posterity. Honoring the Law as you seem to do, what about; “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” (Exodus 20:5)

 

[brakelite]

I guess God didn’t chose the nation Israel.

Oh God chose Israel most assuredly, but they chose another.
Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein

 

[brakelite]

You are confusing civil law with God's judgement on Adam and his posterity. Honoring the Law as you seem to do, what about; “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” (Exodus 20:5)

Yes, the iniquity is passed on. Do we not see that today in generational child abuse where violence is repeated from generation to generation? That is the iniquity passed on by heredity ....but it is not the guilt of the father that is passed down...no-one is punished for another's crime in God's economy. God is just.
But I understand why you would have to believe that...Calvinism demands such diabolical reasoning and misconceptions regarding God's character...calling evil (injustice) good.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, the iniquity is passed on. Do we not see that today in generational child abuse where violence is repeated from generation to generation? That is the iniquity passed on by heredity ....but it is not the guilt of the father that is passed down...no-one is punished for another's crime in God's economy. God is just.
But I understand why you would have to believe that...Calvinism demands such diabolical reasoning and misconceptions regarding God's character...calling evil (injustice) good.

“for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:19)