The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Preacher4Truth]

You keep arguing against a position nobody holds. It is frustrating.

You keep denying what others believe and have plainly stated they believe.

Several on here hold that exact position that I've named.

Please attempt to know what you're talking about and pay attention.

And no, I'm not frustrated as you are, you're just making a statement in ignorance like you're the spokesperson for all here.

In addition to this denial of yours, you even deny your own beliefs when confronted with them, so, go figure, you do it in other areas as well.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

We have biblical support for our beliefs, however.

@Preacher4Truth , I would love it if you explained your beliefs to me with your own words and answered some questions so that I may better understand them. Respect of course being a very important thing here.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You keep denying what others believe and have plainly stated they believe.

Several on here hold that exact position that I've named.

Please attempt to know what you're talking about and pay attention.

And no, I'm not frustrated as you are, you're just making a statement in ignorance like you're the spokesperson for all here.

In addition to this denial of yours, you even deny your own beliefs when confronted with them, so, go figure, you do it in other areas as well.

Insults are not needed.

Here, Ive stated my view here, but I'll happily do so again:
I accepted God's gift of salvation and faith. He didn't give it to me because of anything I did, nor did I 'earn' it in any way.

Does that make sense to you?
No, my choice didn't earn my salvation. But no, I am not a Calvinist at all-- I readily acknowledge that God offed this as a gift, and I had the choice to accept or not.

 

[justbyfaith]

They have zero biblical support for their vote themselves into heaven doctrine,

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Excuse me, but you said zero biblical support.

 

[justbyfaith]

Some people are beyond knowing truth. We need to understand this and treat them kindly.

If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace be a reality, then all that a person needs for salvation is for us to pray for them. And no one is beyond knowing truth if we will but do so; if grace is indeed irresistible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Option 3 involves a person just not being on the forum.

A person can be on the forums and also not argue with certain people over certain subjects.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

A person can be on the forums and also not argue with certain people over certain subjects.

Again, that's a valid option. I was just looking for one where a forum was involved with subject X.

 

[justbyfaith]

And you do not?

Not that I'm aware of.

But of course I was being facetious.

 

[Phoneman777]

It's so nice that he clarified, isn't it? Ah, feels much better now.

No matter, what he says is a false and baseless charge.

Like I told @Phoneman777 in the past, the same asinine argument he attempts to put on us can be played onto him.

There's no way you can "play on me" the "same asinine argument" that I make against Calvinism -- that reason being that ours is a religion of inclusivity, while the "exclusivity religion" of Calvinists is not that much different than Lucifer's.

Both of you claim certain men are drawn to the "light" while others are intentionally left in darkness.
Both of you claim man is selected and does not the selecting.
Both of you claim man has no free will to choose what fate is to be his.
Both of you claim man is is not free to turn back from the path chosen for him.
Both of you claim the unchosen man deserves the darkness in which he dwells.

What remains is whether you Calvinists look upon the rest of the "unwashed, profane masses" with the same disdain and contempt as do Luciferians, and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if I were a fly on the wall at your closed door gatherings, I'd hear nothing but exultation for yourselves and disdain for us who haven't been chosen to rub elbows with such special, honorable, worthy folks as yourselves...like a bunch of rich people standing around driking Dom Perignon and eating caviar and asking haughtily, "I wonder what the poor people are doing tonite".

 

[Dave L]

If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace be a reality, then all that a person needs for salvation is for us to pray for them. And no one is beyond knowing truth if we will but do so; if grace is indeed irresistible.

I don't think this is an accurate doctrine as it makes the word the means of salvation. I believe scripture makes the new birth, in which case we are totally passive, the means of salvation.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

@Preacher4Truth , I would love it if you explained your beliefs to me with your own words and answered some questions so that I may better understand them. Respect of course being a very important thing here.

Not going to happen because of a few things:

1) I've clearly stated my position here, my beliefs here in many threads and have nothing to hide.

2) That said, and since these are clearly known, you're being a tad disingenuous.

3) When you are asked your beliefs, you dodge and deny your beliefs and affiliation, and are purposely unclear, yet, you want clarity from others who have already been clear. I take it to mean you're either ashamed of your gospel, or you're in covert mode.

4) You've attempted to construe me as a person bearing false witness (twice now in 2 days) and the last one is that no one here believes what I've shown they believe when they've actually stated these beliefs plainly. I've misrepresented exactly no one, yet you rush in as if you're the spokesperson for everyone here.

Guess what? You're wrong. The things I stated in my post are the exact beliefs that others espouse on this very forum.

 

[Phoneman777]

Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Excuse me, but you said zero biblical support.

"Whosoever', my favorite word in all of Scripture

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Not going to happen because of a few things:

1) I've clearly stated my position here, my beliefs here in many threads and have nothing to hide.

2) That said, and as it is clearly known, you're being a tad disingenuous.

I'm actually 100% truly interested in having you explain your beliefs so that I can better understand them. I'm just asking to better understand what your beliefs are, no other reason.

The reason I was just asking here rather than hunting through this ridiculously long thread and it's many siblings is 1) time constraints, 2) I have specific questions that are really important to my understanding but they aren't answered in all of this meandering.

3) When you are asked your beliefs, you dodge and deny your beliefs and affiliation, and are purposely unclear, yet, you want clarity from others who have already been clear. I take it to mean you're either ashamed of your gospel, or you're in covert mode.

I directly offered to directly address any ideas you have about what I believe in it's own thread if you were interested. You didn't respond, which I took as a lack of interest on your part, which I respected and didn't press the matter. I'm sorry if that respect didn't convey. If you now or any other time want to chat about things, my offer still stands.

Would you like me to discuss those ideas in a new thread?

 

[marks]

If you love the truth, defend it.

Absolutely! Or . . . just proclaim it. The Holy Spirit gives that part to us, and the rest to Him.

Much love, and thanking you for patience,
Mark

 

[marks]

God used the ultimatum to move David out of harm's way.

Something the pastor brought up was that David inquired of the Lord, as a matter of routine, and then was answered, and David believed God's answers. A very functional relationship.

Much love!

 

[Laish]

I'll bet Trump isn't your President either, right?

Oh I forgot about this of course he was my guy he is Presbyterian. Meaning he is a Calvinist lol.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You don't understand the difference between criticism of one's philosophy and his character, do you? When emotion, not reason, is in the driver's seat, such inability is to be expected. I'll bet Trump isn't your President either, right?

The real issue is this: None of us has presented a philosophy, and have given Biblical evidence instead.

Your entire free will belief system is nothing more than philosophy and is not found in Scripture unless one sees it stems from Genesis 3:1 in the Garden.

You do realize, do you not, that your teachings came from Charles Finney? Are you aware of what his teachings were called, and that they aren't Scriptural? (You can Google it real quick and act like you do.)

In everything you say, it is an attempt for you to sound intelligent, philosophical, and it is nothing but the flesh, pride, your ability, but it never once gives glory to God -- its focus is on you.

Yet you can't back up your philosophy with contextual Scripture.

Ever wonder why?

 

[tabletalk]

It's too bad the rest of all humanity refuses to respond to the call, that they would be among them, as well.

That's exactly right.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Nice to know you can see her motives and inclinations through the internet. Paul wasn't even certain of his own, and they were inside him.

But no matter.

This morning's prayer breakfest, the pastor brought up an interesting point. When David was fleeing Saul, Saul had heard that David was in a certain town. David inquired of God what was going to happen, Will Saul come here? Will the people here hand me over? Yes. God foreknew.

David left the town, Saul stopped heading that way, and nothing happened.

Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. These are two different things, just as the words indicate, being, in the Greek, two different words.

Much love!
Mark

Looks as if you and your pastor are confusing and conflating Gods omniscience of all events, with His foreknowledge of the elect.
This will never lead to truth as it suggests a defective understanding of both words.

 

[tabletalk]

When the persecution and killing of Christians is taking place daily in those very regions, how can anyone say that they have not heard of Christ and Christianity? Muslims know that Jesus is mentioned in the Koran, but they also know that He is mentioned in the Bible. For quite some time now, the Bible has been available freely in every language. So they are without excuse. In any event people make conscious choices about what they will believe and what they will not.

Every Calvinist -- if he or she is honest with themselves -- must admit that they had to make a conscious choice to either believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or not (just like Agrippa).

I do believe Him, but I know I did not choose to believe Him.
I choose many things of God now, but the initial belief was not a choice.