Here we go - Slavery

[Vince]

That a delusion can't be convinced it's a delusion.

I am not convinced delusion is the correct term for religious faith but maybe it is. I was deluded of a true believer for a long time and I realized I had no good reason to believe anymore.

 

[Vince]

I think maybe you are supposed to think that, unless you happen to be a "Plantation Owner" obv--and you might onsite-search the Quotes for more on the um practicality of discussing "the morality of slave ownership with a plantation owner" I'm pretty sure it was, but briefly why bother right, and that guy is going to interpret that passage totally diff yo, that you may be advised?

So, what you think is cool and all, don't get me wrong, if you liked the passage in any way I would have (been able to skip this post lol) a diff reaction, Bc I have recently discussed here onsite the practicality of discussing the morality of slave ownership etc etc in a diff context, and it wasn't about them either tho they were sure it was I'm sure. Um...ya. Sorry, on the fly here

You will need to convince me that there is a context in which owning another person as property is moral.

 

[ScottA]

Got it.

Hallelujah!

 

[JellyJam]

I am not convinced delusion is the correct term for religious faith but maybe it is. I was deluded of a true believer for a long time and I realized I had no good reason to believe anymore.

Well Vince,

What do you call a condition when a person accepts a belief as a fact, and will do anything to defend it.

 

[bbyrd009]

an Absolute Trutharian?
a Standing There-ite?
Red Foreman has a good name for them, can't say it here though i guess

Yes, we need to be prepared to see all perspectives, in order to have a complete understanding. Thus far Vin has apparently not considered God's perspective.

Ah, tbh imo Vin is also informing God's perspective, i would even be careful there, the prayers of a Righteous Man avail much.

But since im here anyway, guess I haven't considered God's perspective either, what is it?

 

[bbyrd009]

So you think that beating your slave like the bible says is not always wrong?

Ha. Um, you are still talking about literal slaves Vin? Makes it harder to reply for me, but on that level, the q is still moot Bc i believe anyone who has put themselves in the position of master forcefully like that is doomed, and the timing is not great here but if you were hearing i would be willing to bet that a study of the relevant passages--with Lex of course, i don't read the Bible in English any more--would pretty much bear that belief out. Maybe not, bc

on the way i would insist on getting a better perspective than i have now on what they then believed about beating slaves, etc, i've been boning up on that but the slaves who loved their masters enough to get an earring is throwing me, who are they, irl? Since we're talking literal slaves here. I can't really find them yet

 

[bbyrd009]

I never have said there is no god. I do not believe that, I cannot know that so I don't claim that.

Well, gimme that any day over someone who says they know God lol, for sure. I guess we can know of God though, wish I could recall the name of the book that...tipped me over, about physicists who i just got the impression while reading were basically tip-toeing around the Concept the same way high-up politicians do not mention certain names, unless they are Lincoln or JFK anyway. Tip-toeing until they retired at least.

Fwiw admitting that i was pissed--as in really mad, not really drunk--at God helped a lot. Confessing would prolly be better than admitting even, def doing that next time to see, never even occurred to me duh

 

[bbyrd009]

Got it.

you know the song "it's like this and like that and like this?" Snoop Dogg? Hard for even me to relate as i'm...so white, lol, but that's the best song, best line in a song anyway, i've found to express...that. But the rest of the subject matter in the lyrics is crap I guess, hard to pick out the point even, and language warning too, mostly for any pru...other readers later,

which I post mostly Bc I like to have a link for it handy, looking for a better source for that concept though, a better song, if anyone gots one. More relevant to white ppl is what I'm looking for. Bc i am racist and avoid blacks like the plague i guess lol

 

[bbyrd009]

The words mean slavery and beating. You can wordsmith it all you want if it makes you sleep at night.

Ah, true dat. But fwiw i can even toggle that now, literal/spiritual, to you i would say literal/mental i guess, and i don't mean to imply totally tossing the literal either ok. But i do mean those guys were quite often and maybe even usually using words like slave as symbols for other, more valid concepts that they wanted to illuminate, imo.

I'm sure you would agree that the borrower is slave to the lender, wouldn't you? If not we could consider some other frame, and circle back around i guess. While we're on the subject, how many literal slaves do you know/have you known, in your life?

Also you apparently assume that every literal slave is an unwilling slave, yes? When imo something closer to the opposite is more likely the case, as i can even witness in myself. Not near as bad as my shooting meth days, but still there i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Hallelujah!

vinnie takes another head lol, can i get a witness?
still love you tho k

 

[Soverign Grace]

I am not convinced delusion is the correct term for religious faith but maybe it is. I was deluded of a true believer for a long time and I realized I had no good reason to believe anymore.

Were you disappointed by God Vince? I had to fight through a lot of doubts - as soon as you meet Christ you meet the evil one who attempts to steal your faith. Don't let him - he only has your destruction in mind. I urge you to keep reading Scripture and sermons in spite of not believing. One day you will develop an unshakeable faith. I know because it happened to me. Do I understand God? No, not at all. He allowed some very hard things in my life, and I've turned away from Him several times but even though I don't understand Him I know He's there.

 

[bbyrd009]

You will need to convince me that there is a context in which owning another person as property is moral.

If you will promise to just feed and shelter me for the um foreseeable future, oh and protect me from whatever, Muslims i guess, i will work all you like, dbl shifts even apparently, doing whatever you say. Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap. Btw I eat like a bird and i'll sleep in your hat, practically, too.
What do you say?

 

[Vince]

Well Vince,

What do you call a condition when a person accepts a belief as a fact, and will do anything to defend it.

I did not do this. I was a true believer yet I found my way out.

 

[Vince]

Were you disappointed by God Vince?

No, I realized that I had no good reason to believe and became unconvinced. Belief is not a choice.

I had to fight through a lot of doubts - as soon as you meet Christ you meet the evil one who attempts to steal your faith. Don't let him - he only has your destruction in mind. I urge you to keep reading Scripture and sermons in spite of not believing. One day you will develop an unshakeable faith. I know because it happened to me. Do I understand God? No, not at all. He allowed some very hard things in my life, and I've turned away from Him several times but even though I don't understand Him I know He's there.

I had a deep faith for many years. I was a true believer for at least 15 of my 18 years as claiming to be a christian. The more information I learned about epistemology and such I became unconvinced. I am not going to waste any more of my time trying to convince myself unless I am presented with new information. I feel like I have studies more than most Christians have about these subjects.

What are the reasons you believe?

 

[Vince]

Ha. Um, you are still talking about literal slaves Vin?

Yes, all the evidence I look at through the translators and scholars indicate that it was meant for actual slaves.

 

[Vince]

I'm sure you would agree that the borrower is slave to the lender, wouldn't you?

Same word different meaning. Can a lender beat a slave?

If not we could consider some other frame, and circle back around i guess. While we're on the subject, how many literal slaves do you know/have you known, in your life?

None. So what. There are more slaves living today than in any other time in history. Also, that has nothing to do with the fact that the god of the bible made rules for actual slave owners that are immoral.

Also you apparently assume that every literal slave is an unwilling slave, yes? When imo something closer to the opposite is more likely the case, as i can even witness in myself. Not near as bad as my shooting meth days, but still there i guess

So? Some were not. ANd god said they could be beaten.

 

[Vince]

If you will promise to just feed and shelter me for the um foreseeable future, oh and protect me from whatever, Muslims i guess, i will work all you like, dbl shifts even apparently, doing whatever you say. Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap. Btw I eat like a bird and i'll sleep in your hat, practically, too.
What do you say?

Can I sell you into sex slavery or beat you? That is what god said slave owners could do to unwilling slaves.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, all the evidence I look at through the translators and scholars indicate that it was meant for actual slaves.

All that indicates to me Vince is that that then becomes by definition the wrong answer...but I would have to marinate on a response that would serve for you i guess. Um, "sheep lie!" lol. Apropos of nothing though, not meant to be the response. Brb. Dang, brb later i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, all the evidence I look at through the translators and scholars indicate that it was meant for actual slaves.

Were they saying...stuff like "this is that, that is this?" With no qualifications iow?

 

[bbyrd009]

Same word different meaning.

so you say

Can a lender beat a slave?

to death, literally, yes

None.

well, again, so you say...

So what.

so, how do you know for sure that you have never known any "literal" slaves?

There are more slaves living today than in any other time in history.

ezackly, see. Yet you have known none, ever. Bc imo you have an image in your mind of what Slave means, and slave has to mean that now, and I am required to abide by your defs here, right, iow we are not really even having a convo, see, i am basically coming here for a Vinnie Sermon once or twice a day i guess

Also, that has nothing to do with the fact that the god of the bible made rules for actual slave owners that are immoral.

wait, the God that you are not sure exists made those rules? How does that work? And wadr i am not just passing the time here vinnie, i mean no offense ok but i am slowly going blind staring at a postage stamp playing durdur with you imo. How, tf, do you know it has nothing to do with that thing that you are not even being consistent about? I didn't bring it up as a deflection or subject change, ok

So?

so what follows so there tells me that you are not interested in hearing anything, Vince, no offense, and i for sure am not interested in posting for posterity at the moment, ok. You are trying to win a conversation wadr, not reveal or seek, near as i can tell. If you are here to reveal, then reveal, and if you are here to seek, then hear. Yes, the God that you are not sure "exists" inspired those who can hear better than you or i to carefully craft a passage that imo you have not even grasped the first sentence of yet, which I am now going to go pointlessly retrieve Bc of the way it is phrased, 1These are the ordinances that you are to set before them, which is...um expressing a kind of peculiar way for God to be phrasing ordinances, which are not ezackly laws so i dunno what version that is but i'm impressed. Anyway, no "Thou shalt" or "Thou shalt not" stuff goin on at all, see. "Put it to them this way" is what i am hearing there, and the "because" is occluded imo