So how are we seeing right now?

[amadeus]

You have to remember mirrorers back in that day were not silver backed glass. They were highly polished metal.

So the reflection was distorted and blurry. Brass was heavily used.

So then modern physical mirrors are better. Should it not be so spiritually as a person moves or is moved closer to God?

 

[Enoch111]

And given your conclusion, what of between now and then? Are there no improvements possible in our vision during our allotted time "here"?

The Bible says that the just shall live by faith, and we walk by faith, not by sight, as seeing Him who is invisible.

 

[Enoch111]

Your opinion has no value at all.

Except that I quoted the SCRIPTURE that makes this clear. It is you who is spouting Gnostic opinions.

 

[Enoch111]

He does make a lot of claims that have no biblical foundation.

Correct. Episkopos has manufactured his own theology and I trust others will see through that.

 

[Episkopos]

You are not giving testimony to Jesus Christ or the Bible.

You have made it clear many times you envision yourself as a prophet. You are not.

You are an offensive person who I don't consider a brother. I find all your words to be exactly backwards. You project your own falsehoods on me. I'm so done with the likes of you.

 

[Episkopos]

Except that I quoted the SCRIPTURE that makes this clear. It is you who is spouting Gnostic opinions.

The devil quotes scripture. You have a far too high opinion of your own opinions.

 

[marks]

We see in a mirror darkly.

But what do we see?

Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

The Bible says that the just shall live by faith, and we walk by faith, not by sight, as seeing Him who is invisible.

Yes, especially at the beginning we walk by faith for we started out completely blind spiritually. As our real [what God would call real]knowledge and our faith increase, will not our vision improve? Will not Jesus touch our eyes again as He did with the blind man cited above?

Is there not to be an favorable end to our faith?

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Glass in the KJV:
e[soptron Esoptron (es'-op-tron);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 2072

1. a mirror
   1. the mirrors of the ancients were made, not of glass, but steel

KJV Word Usage and Count
glass 2

Darkly in the KJV:

ai[nigma Ainigma (ah'-ee-nig-ma);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 135

1. an obscure saying, enigma, riddle
2. an obscure thing

KJV Word Usage and Count
darkly

Face in the KJV (from face to face):

provswpon Prosopon (pros'-o-pon);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 4383

1. the face
   1. the front of the human head
   2. countenance, look
      1. the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and by it various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings
   3. the appearance one presents by his wealth or property, his rank or low condition
      1. outward circumstances, external condition
      2. used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one's judgment and treatment of men
2. the outward appearance of inanimate things

KJV Word Usage and Count
face 55
person 7
presence 7
countenance 3
not translated 1
miscellaneous 5

To in the KJV (from face to face):
provß Pros (pros);
Word Origin: Greek, Preposition, Strong #: 4314

1. to the advantage of
2. at, near, by
3. to, towards, with, with regard to

KJV Word Usage and Count
unto 340
to 203
with 43
for 25
against 24
among 20
at 11
not translated 6
miscellaneous 53
vr to 1

And then several Bible translations of a single verse from the writings of Apostle Paul:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12 [KJV]

"For we see now through a dim window obscurely, but then face to face; now I know partially, but then I shall know according as I also have been known." I Cor 13:12 [Darby]

"We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known." I Cor 13:12 [Douay Rheims]

"For the present we see things as if in a mirror, and are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is imperfect; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I Cor 13:12 [Weymouth]

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; who then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I Cor 13:12 [NIV]

"for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;" I Cor 13:12 [Young's]

Has anyone gone one up on Paul at the time of his writing with a "face to face" vision?
Remember that according to what God had Solomon write a thousand years before Jesus was born to Mary in Bethlehem a vison is quite necessary:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish... " Prov 29:18

I'll make no comments at the moment, but rather wait to se where others believe that they or we are now.

Good topic. Not sure but ‘unveiled’ change from glory to glory would seem important or ‘confusion’.

Jeremiah 7:19
[19] Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord : do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Proverbs 27:18-19
[18] Whoso keepeth the fig tree shall eat the fruit thereof: so he that waiteth on his master shall be honoured. [19] As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.

 

[amadeus]

We see in a mirror darkly.

But what do we see?

Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Much love!

Indeed, but not yet the "face to face" vision. Better than Moses we should be able to see as per...

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex 33:20

Although Paul denied having the face to face vision he held out a hope for it not expressed to Moses. That is our Hope!

 

[Episkopos]

Hey John...here is another angle. Jesus called the Laodicean church bishop blind....and that he needed to purchase eye salve from Him so that he might see.

Rev. 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.



1. This is not about physical sight.
2. As a Christian leader he would already know the gospel.

So that leaves the deeper walk of faith that opens into spiritual life. That is what he is missing. And SO many people these days are fully unaware of.

Therefore Jesus is speaking of the spiritual faculty of seeing.

Just another reference to your OP. :)

 

[amadeus]

Good topic. Not sure but ‘unveiled’ change from glory to glory would seem important or ‘confusion’.

Jeremiah 7:19
[19] Do they provoke me to anger? saith the Lord : do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Proverbs 27:18-19
[18] Whoso keepeth the fig tree shall eat the fruit thereof: so he that waiteth on his master shall be honoured. [19] As in water face answereth to face, so the heart of man to man.

The confusion of men seen at the tower of Babel [Gen 11] and in the captive children of Israel in Babylon is also blindness to Truth:

"And they slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedekiah, and bound him with fetters of brass, and carried him to Babylon." II Kings 25:7

Men see/understand with their carnal brains even what is written in scriptures or what some unanointed man tells them the scriptures mean and presume everything is OK:

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:20-21

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

 

[amadeus]

Hey John...here is another angle. Jesus called the Laodicean church bishop blind....and that he needed to purchase eye salve from Him so that he might see.

1. This is not about physical sight.
2. As a Christian leader he would already know the gospel.

So that leaves the deeper walk of faith that opens into spiritual life. That is what he is missing. And SO many people these days are fully unaware of.

Therefore Jesus is speaking of the spiritual faculty of seeing.

Just another reference to your OP. :)

Indeed the eye salve of Rev 3:18 equals the blessed eyes and ears Jesus mentions in Matt 13:16. This is the Holy Spirit of God working in us... if He is! Without the Holy Spirit, we are indeed blind to God and the things of God. And blind leaders...?

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matt 15:14

 

[CoreIssue]

If this is so, will it always be so? Will the physical be gone when we are like Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

Christ will always be the second person of the Trinity in his spirit and flesh in his body. But the body will be glorified.

How we will perceive things in a glorified body we are not told. But I think the spirit and body will be unified in percptions and understanding.

After all the bodies function is to be a transport and container for our spirits that contains physical sensors.

 

[Enoch111]

Is there not to be an favorable end to our faith?

Yes, the end of our faith is the salvation of our bodies, souls, and spirits at the Resurrection/Rapture. The end of salvation is perfection and glorification.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (1 Pet 1:9)

 

[CoreIssue]

Hey John...here is another angle. Jesus called the Laodicean church bishop blind....and that he needed to purchase eye salve from Him so that he might see.

Rev. 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.



1. This is not about physical sight.
2. As a Christian leader he would already know the gospel.

So that leaves the deeper walk of faith that opens into spiritual life. That is what he is missing. And SO many people these days are fully unaware of.

Therefore Jesus is speaking of the spiritual faculty of seeing.

Just another reference to your OP. :)

Jesus was speaking to the whole church. Not just to its preacher.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So then modern physical mirrors are better. Should it not be so spiritually as a person moves or is moved closer to God?

Blessings, John. Glad to see you are feeling better.

About this question, my answer would be not without the gift of prophecy in full operation. This was the very means by which Paul said they were seeing themselves through a mirror, even as they existed back then. Since very few churches operate in prophecy at the current time, we see ourselves LESS clearly than they did back then, not more clearly.

- Be zealous for the greater gifts, and yet I show a way in accordance with excellence. (1 Corinthians 12:31)
- Here he is referring backwards to every member of the body operating in his or her own spiritual gifts, and therefore needing one another. This is why love is stressed in 13:1-7. Then he states your verse quoted in the OP:

- Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will be rendered useless. Whether there are tongues, they shall cease. Whether there is knowledge, it shall be rendered useless. For we know in part and we prophecy in part. But when that which is complete may come, that which is in part is rendered useless. [Then comes the analogy of us seeing ourselves as infants would now, but as adults would see themselves in eternity]...
For now we see through a mirror as in a riddle, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall recognize [myself] even as I have been recognized. (1 Corinthians 13:1-12).
- The whole passage is about accurately recognizing one's true spiritual state as GOD sees it, and I personally think this to be utterly impossible unless the Spirit of God speaks through congregations enabling Him to do so (as the context suggests, through prophetic utterance in particular).

No time for talk. Too busy. Just thought I'd post a comment.

 

[CoreIssue]

Correct. Episkopos has manufactured his own theology and I trust others will see through that.

I think most see that but if you are willing to speak up.

It is the sign of the times.

 

[amadeus]

Christ will always be the second person of the Trinity in his spirit and flesh in his body. But the body will be glorified.

How we will perceive things in a glorified body we are not told. But I think the spirit and body will be unified in percptions and understanding.

After all the bodies function is to be a transport and container for our spirits that contains physical sensors.

Well as you may recall I do not embrace the existence of a Trinity, but that is another discussion... not for here.

And if all of the physical things and apparent perceptions of the physical senses of men are simply allusions that will pass away at the end our time as we become like Him, a spirit, a celestial body only remaining as our terrestrial body does what?

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matt 24:35

What if we, that is our bodies formed from a lump of clay are the earth mentioned? Then what will remain? If we are without God, will there not be anything at all?

 

[CoreIssue]

Neither Christ or the Saints are spirit beings in eternity. They have bodies, glorified bodies.