Here we go - Slavery

[Taken]

Vince ~

We are at an impass.

I believe In Gods existance, you don't.

I believe God established Just and Necessary Laws, positive and punitive for Israel, to which Israel agreed, you don't agree.

I believe God established Ceremonial Laws for Israel.

I believe God established Precepts for all men, for mans benefit.

I believe Jesus fulfilled Israels Law, and thus without the Law, there is no consequence.

I believe Jesus offered a Way for Israel and Gentiles to receive Salvation of their soul and a Quickening of their spirit without experiencing Physical Bodily Death.

I believe buying and selling of property included persons, and God established Laws for "IF" one was a Master or Slave.

I believe regardless of what terms are use;
Master/ Slave, Master/Servant,
Master/Apprentice, Employer/Employee, Husband/Wife, Parent/Child, Governor/Governed, Guard/Prisoner,
King/Subject, etc. etc.;
There are multiple situations whereby one person is the Authority, and another person is subject to the Authority....and
Laws, Regulations, Laws, Consequences,
Always apply in such relationships.

It really does not matter to me IF you agree with Gods Standards and Principles and Precepts.....I do.

It really does not matter to me IF you believe in Gods existance. It has zero effect on me and shall only effect you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Vince]

There are no other persons, only One begotten. The rest is manifest creation...within you.

Evidence of God...hahahaa!

You have answered already. Easy for you. You judge yourself. See you in the judgement.

This is your answer to these questions:

Is it moral to own another person as property? is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/no?

These are easy questions to answer.

You refuse to answer instead you write some jibberjabber. Not one Christians on this site has yet to answer these questions. These are the easiest questions to answer. The answer is no to both. Your faith has led you to believe that somehow these things are good and you twist logic to convince yourself that they are. You want to believe god is good when there is evidence in the bible that says he is not if he exists.

 

[Vince]

I believe buying and selling of property included persons, and God established Laws for "IF" one was a Master or Slave.

So by this I conclude that you think it is OK to treat people as property and that beating your (slave) property is moral, at least at one time it was. Wow.

 

[ScottA]

This is your answer to these questions:

Is it moral to own another person as property? is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/no?

These are easy questions to answer.

You refuse to answer instead you write some jibberjabber. Not one Christians on this site has yet to answer these questions. These are the easiest questions to answer. The answer is no to both. Your faith has led you to believe that somehow these things are good and you twist logic to convince yourself that they are. You want to believe god is good when there is evidence in the bible that says he is not if he exists.

You have gotten the response you have because you are NOT just asking simple questions, but are dictating a line of thinking which does not apply to the subject. Why should we entertain or indulge you when you are off track?

We have done you a favor by not enabling you in your folly, and all you can do is criticize. This is all on you.

 

[Vince]

Is it moral to own another person as property? Yes/No?
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev 25:44-46 NIV

Is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/no?
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Dt 22:28-29 NIV

Is it moral to take sex slaves? Yes/No?
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:17-18 NIV

Will any Christian answer these?

 

[ScottA]

Is it moral to own another person as property? Yes/No?
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev 25:44-46 NIV

Is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/no?
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Dt 22:28-29 NIV

Is it moral to take sex slaves? Yes/No?
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:17-18 NIV

Will any Christian answer these?

Go ahead, put the bait out and see if you can catch a Christian the same way they tried to catch Jesus. Same old agenda, same old source.

If this were not a satanic agenda and you were honestly interested in answers, you would listen and reason point by point. But you will only do what serves your agenda, which is proof of who sent you.

 

[Vince]

Go ahead, put the bait out and see if you can catch a Christian the same way they tried to catch Jesus. Same old agenda, same old source.

If this were not a satanic agenda and you were honestly interested in answers, you would listen and reason point by point. But you will only do what serves your agenda, which is proof of who sent you.

Still no answer. How is it bait? If you cannot say that owning people as property, sex slavery and women marrying their rape attackers are immoral then you need to question your basis for morality in my opinion.

God says don't steal, don't lie, done covet don't eat shellfish but he cannot say don't enslave others as property? I will wait for another evasive "answer".

 

[ScottA]

Still no answer. How is it bait? If you cannot say that owning people as property, sex slavery and women marrying their rape attackers are immoral then you need to question your basis for morality in my opinion.

God says don't steal, don't lie, done covet don't eat shellfish but he cannot say don't enslave others as property? I will wait for another evasive "answer".

I have chosen not to enable your misunderstanding, but to give you the correct and honest answer.

If you don't want to hear it, fine. But the underbelly of this line of questioning and your whole opposition, is yours. You trying to drag us down to that level by baiting the question under a moral heading is underhanded. You have an evil agenda to do harm to any who will engage.

Still, I will offer...if you would like to come up to the level of the true and honest answer, I will explain (again). Will you do what is decent and honest?

 

[Vince]

I have chosen not to enable your misunderstanding, but to give you the correct and honest answer.

If you don't want to hear it, fine. But the underbelly of this line of questioning and your whole opposition, is yours. You trying to drag us down to that level by baiting the question under a moral heading is underhanded. You have an evil agenda to do harm to any who will engage.

Still, I will offer...if you would like to come up to the level of the true and honest answer, I will explain (again). Will you do what is decent and honest?

What is not decent nor honest is your unwillingness to condemn sex slavery, beating slaves and women forced to marry their rapists as written in the bible. That should not be a hard thing to do. It is a straightforward question, you don't like it because you cannot resolve contradiction of a good god and these things he advocates. Your explanation last time did not hold any water, it was an attempt to defend the indefensible.

 

[ScottA]

What is not decent nor honest is your unwillingness to condemn sex slavery, beating slaves and women forced to marry their rapists as written in the bible. That should not be a hard thing to do. It is a straightforward question, you don't like it because you cannot resolve contradiction of a good god and these things he advocates. Your explanation last time did not hold any water, it was an attempt to defend the indefensible.

As I said, it would be a disservice to enable you to go off on the wrong idea, where there is no true answer to your questions.

But let's be perfectly clear. You are a like a fox in a hen house...and asking for "hugs." Which, by definition, gives you the credibility of a pedophile and a sex offender. So, while you are categorically and graciously welcome here, and I have no real say say in it...if you come around as you have, baiting for errors on emotional topics, obviously trying to stir up trouble, while claiming to have "questions" but all the while making accusations, none of us is under any obligation to be kind...and yet we have been.

So, no, I am not falling for your traps, and if you want sincere answers, you can start by being sincere yourself. And now that you have already abused our kindness, and shown yourself to be here on attack with an agenda to do harm - before I will answer any of your questions, you can answer some for me, starting with:

1. Do you want the truth about your question regarding slavery, or do you just want us to agree with you, even if you're wrong?

 

[Vince]

As I said, it would be a disservice to enable you to go off on the wrong idea, where there is no true answer to your questions.

But let's be perfectly clear. You are a like a fox in a hen house...and asking for "hugs." Which, by definition, gives you the credibility of a pedophile and a sex offender.

This is slanderous but your morals say that slandering people is OK as long as they are unbelievers at least this is what I have concluded.

So, while you are categorically and graciously welcome here, and I have no real say say in it...if you come around as you have, baiting for errors on emotional topics, obviously trying to stir up trouble, while claiming to have "questions" but all the while making accusations, none of us is under any obligation to be kind...and yet we have been.

Really? I have been called all kinds of names here including by yourself. Many have been kind indeed.

So, no, I am not falling for your traps, and if you want sincere answers, you can start by being sincere yourself. And now that you have already abused our kindness, and shown yourself to be here on attack with an agenda to do harm - before I will answer any of your questions, you can answer some for me, starting with:

1. Do you want the truth about your question regarding slavery, or do you just want us to agree with you, even if you're wrong?

You thinking that asking if sex slavery is immoral is a trap is evidence that you cannot answer this question without altering your beliefs. If you want to answer my question go ahead I have been waiting. Give me sufficient evidence that the bible does not support these things then ok, but if it is more of your conjecture and opinion not supported by the biblical text then that won't be convincing.

 

[ScottA]

This is slanderous but your morals say that slandering people is OK as long as they are unbelievers at least this is what I have concluded.

Really? I have been called all kinds of names here including by yourself. Many have been kind indeed.

You thinking that asking if sex slavery is immoral is a trap is evidence that you cannot answer this question without altering your beliefs. If you want to answer my question go ahead I have been waiting. Give me sufficient evidence that the bible does not support these things then ok, but if it is more of your conjecture and opinion not supported by the biblical text then that won't be convincing.

You are not my judge. So, if you want to continue any sort of dialog, stop weighing my comments. It's not helping your position.

I do realize there are millions of people saying different things, but it is not our job to sort it out, it's yours. This is you making your decision on what is true, in a process of selection, determining where you go from here. Does that not make sense?

Okay, back to your questions: If you had met my honest report that your question of slavery and God cannot be answered by addressing it as a moral issue, with "Oh, please explain, because my real interest is getting at the truth." That would have been a starting point to doing just that. But instead, you have pressed the point showing that you are not interested in the whole truth, but have some reason for limiting the conversation to make your own point. In which case, I will not be used and abused by you to further an evil agenda against God.

Now, if on the other hand you were to have not pressed the point, but nicely and reasonably asked to start with the moral question of why God would appear to be moral on some things but not on others...the answer would be the same (that, morals are not the subject, but rather the object)...then, as you have said, the answer is simple: Immoral acts are not moral...which is exactly why it should not be considered the subject at hand. You see, God is a lot smarter than that. Could he have just been moral with all his dealings? Of course. He's God. So...it is you who is not being very smart...and if you will tone down your own attitude, in time so will I. But for now, you got us here, and you will have to earn your way back. Nonetheless, you have your answer: Immoral acts are not moral. But you have also gone off in your tangent to be accusatory, accusing God and Christians of being immoral, even though it has been pointed out to you that it is not the case, and why. It has also been pointed out that the actual situation is not one of morals, but you have refused to hear it, as one who has a limit and is unable to go to the greater intellectual heights necessary to come to a complete understanding. So, I need to now ask you:

1. Is that a real limit, or have you simply been refusing?
2. And if it is not a real limit, are you really capable and interested in knowing the whole truth, or was I right about you, that you have your own agenda and don't really want anything to do with what you have been pretending was the real reason you are here?

Show yourself sincere, or show yourself a fraud. If you evade, I will take it to be fraud.

 

[Taken]

So by this I conclude that you think it is OK to treat people as property and that beating your (slave) property is moral, at least at one time it was. Wow.

At one time, yes, JUST.
And again, (beating is subjective).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Vince]

You are not my judge. So, if you want to continue any sort of dialog, stop weighing my comments. It's not helping your position.

If I can't question your comments then any discussion is moot.

I do realize there are millions of people saying different things, but it is not our job to sort it out, it's yours. This is you making your decision on what is true, in a process of selection, determining where you go from here. Does that not make sense?

It is actually your job to sort it out because you are making the claims.

Okay, back to your questions: If you had met my honest report that your question of slavery and God cannot be answered by addressing it as a moral issue, with "Oh, please explain, because my real interest is getting at the truth." That would have been a starting point to doing just that. But instead, you have pressed the point showing that you are not interested in the whole truth, but have some reason for limiting the conversation to make your own point. In which case, I will not be used and abused by you to further an evil agenda against God.

The fact is you explained your position on this to me already and I don't agree with it. It is not dishonest or any of those accusations you throw. I am not making you discuss anything with me. You are free to not respond.

Now, if on the other hand you were to have not pressed the point, but nicely and reasonably asked to start with the moral question of why God would appear to be moral on some things but not on others...the answer would be the same (that, morals are not the subject, but rather the object)...then, as you have said, the answer is simple: Immoral acts are not moral...which is exactly why it should not be considered the subject at hand. You see, God is a lot smarter than that. Could he have just been moral with all his dealings? Of course. He's God. So...it is you who is not being very smart...and if you will tone down your own attitude, in time so will I. But for now, you got us here, and you will have to earn your way back. Nonetheless, you have your answer: Immoral acts are not moral.

Yes and black is not white, a can is not a ball. That explains nothing.

But you have also gone off in your tangent to be accusatory, accusing God and Christians of being immoral, even though it has been pointed out to you that it is not the case, and why.

I have not accused Christians of being immoral, I have accused them of defending something that is immoral. I doubt I could find any Christian today that agrees with slavers, sex slavery and denying rape victims right not to marry their rapist. I have accused you god of being immoral. Also, you have explained your reasons why and I have explained why I disagree with those reasons.

It has also been pointed out that the actual situation is not one of morals, but you have refused to hear it, as one who has a limit and is unable to go to the greater intellectual heights necessary to come to a complete understanding. So, I need to now ask you:

1. Is that a real limit, or have you simply been refusing?
2. And if it is not a real limit, are you really capable and interested in knowing the whole truth, or was I right about you, that you have your own agenda and don't really want anything to do with what you have been pretending was the real reason you are here?

Show yourself sincere, or show yourself a fraud. If you evade, I will take it to be fraud.

You seem to have the notion that whatever you explain I must accept. I reject your last explanation for reasons I gave in that discussion. If you have new reasons lets hear them, if not then ok.

 

[Vince]

At one time, yes, JUST.
And again, (beating is subjective).

All I can say is that I hope you don't vote. Beating slaves, sex slavery and forcing women to marry their rapist are always wrong no matter what "time" it is in.

 

[Taken]

All I can say is that I hope you don't vote.

No sure what you think that has to do with anything.

Beating slaves, sex slavery
and forcing women to marry their rapist are always wrong no matter what "time" it is in.

God gave all men freewill. Pretending you can dictate an others freewill or morality is a fail.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

If I can't question your comments then any discussion is moot.

This is not a discussion.

 

[ScottA]

It is actually your job to sort it out because you are making the claims.

Those may be rules that you recognize and adhere to, but they are not the rules in this case. These are God's rules.

 

[ScottA]

The fact is you explained your position on this to me already and I don't agree with it. It is not dishonest or any of those accusations you throw. I am not making you discuss anything with me. You are free to not respond.

No, you are the one trying to wag the dog, and trying to shame Christians into agreeing with your position based on your ideas, which are simply incorrect and out of context. You don't have to agree, but your agreement is only of consequence to you, it is of no consequence to the subject at hand.

 

[ScottA]

Yes and black is not white, a can is not a ball. That explains nothing.

The problem is, you are grossly out of context. Slavery in this context is not a moral issue...that is, not on the part of God...which is your error. It is only a moral issue on the part of men, which is by design. But if you are incapable of considering the matter in its proper context, you will just have to live with that deficit. I offered.