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Here we go - Slavery

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Vince, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    Ok
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  2. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    that is...Hegelian dialectic upinya? ya
    you talk diff when lightning flashes from east to west I guess
    the Euphrates is literally drying up ppl, don't be looking for soldiers ok


    we don't write the way you talk or whatever the v is
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019 at 4:32 AM
  3. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    again, you reinforce the point here, yes, ty
     
  4. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    So, what is your objection for God having set a consequence for something a man "MIGHT" do to an other person?


    Moreso I was interested in what YOU believe that MEANS for an individual ?
    Like specifically what the individual will be suffering.

    Curious, that you can mention God so often, and Observe the existance of the Earth, skys, sun, moon, oceans, etc.; and say you have no clear vision of His existance.

    You imply you have an option for raising your children to avoid corporal punishment.
    I would presume, you made rules for your children, and they knew the consequence for disobedience of the rules. Yes?

    However the scenario is of Master / Slave relationship.
    They certainly may be two men of same size, rather than adult father and his child.
    The relationship is spelled out how the relationship is established.
    The rules are established by the Master.
    The disobedience of the rules is known by the slave.
    So, what is your point?
    You do not like the punishment for rule violation?

    All that tells me is YOU would not be willing to agree to such a relationship.

    And that men IN ancient days, disagree with you, and DID agree to such a relationship.

    So, If you TODAY, became indebted to another and could not Repay...
    What would to do?

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  5. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    The consequence itself. Beating a slave severely is not a moral act no matter what the salve did. That is my objection besides owning people as property.

    I assume fire.

    I mention god because we are discussing gods existence and morality. Not that I believe he exists. There are scientific explanations for the stars, moon, oceans etc. that are more convincing than god created them.

    Yes.

    Yes. I think it is immoral. The punishment should be moral and fit the act of disobedience. Also, some of t he slaves were slaves not by choice so they may have known the rules but had no say whether to live under them or not.

    True, but you are dodging the fact that some of the slaves were slaves not of their own choice.

    Not all did.

    We have moral laws that handle this situation. We don't and shouldn't implement a slave master relationship to solve this problem because it is an immoral situation. You keep avoiding the fact that some of the slaves were slaves by force not choice.
     
  6. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Morality was never the issue.
    What men MIGHT do to another man under his Authority is the issue.
    Killing a man under an others Authority gave the consequence.

    Property is simply a term of having complete Authority over the thing.
    Today people are appalled of one person owning another (even the ownership of Animals in some cases). Yet there is NO question, that one person can be charged with a crime for NOT being responsible for their complete Authority over another.

    It's the WORDS that offend people...slave, owner, master. Even though people themselves Voluntarily GIVE other people Authority OVER THEM.

    And what about FIRE? Do you believe that something....like a dead body, shall suffer being in Fire?

    Certainly, you have heard; eternal LIFE is the offering for a man to be Forever with God....
    And there is no ETERNAL Life offered to a man Without God.
    So what if a Dead body is thrown into a Fire Pit? What does a Dead body know or feel?

    So off the cuff, where did the moon come from?

    You hinge the punishment on morality.
    God does not MANAGE a mans morality.
    Some men are kind, fair, considerate...
    TO their family, their employees, their servants....and some are real Bastards, to their family, employees, servants.

    God simply made the rules, and the punishments thereof.

    And "IF" you understood Scripture, those Mosaic "rules" / Laws have been fulfilled.

    So what applied to them, in their day, has what to do with you?

    I am not dodging anything.
    What slaves? Women, Children? He who had authority OVER THEM, decided FOR THEM.
    You were once a child....WHO made decisions FOR YOU? If you dad was head of household and decided to send you off to live with another, to boarding school, to apprentice with a man owning a farm.....that would not have mattered if you agreed or objected.
    Same thing in ancient days....the one with authority over an other made the agreements. And particularly there were adult people who made their own agreements, to resolve their own debts....(which btw was for a period of no longer than 7 years and if there was a remainer of their debt, it was forgiven).

    We have Laws. Laws of the Federation, Laws of the States, Laws of the Counties, cities, neighborhood and families....
    As an Adult, YOU can agree and make yourself subject to the Consequences if you violate the laws....
    OR
    You can go to another country, state, city, neighborhood, or get a new family that is more to your liking of their laws.

    Not much different IN the OT. Gods laws and Consequences were given to a PEOPLE, who Agreed to be subject to those laws and consequences. You were not given those laws or consequences, nor were you there to agree or disagree with those laws or consequences.

    So, not sure of your making a big deal out of something that never applied to you, or something you had to consider whether or not you liked or agreed with.

    Perhaps I don't agree with your rules for your children or Chinese Laws or Islamic Laws...so what? I have not agree to subject myself to any of those things.


    Why? Because you say so?

    But what about the man WHO CAN NOT PAY HIS DEBTS.....You avoided providing a solution.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  7. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    If I may...

    That is not the situation. The situation is that God has held a mirror up to the evils of man and demonstrated how those evils have made slaves of us all, that apart from Him, we have enslaved ourselves to many such evils.
     
  8. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    Morality is always an issue.

    People are not things.
    Owning a person and having responsibility for another is not the same thing. If I owned my children I could beat them severely, since they are not my property I would go to jail for beating them severely. I am responsible for their well being and that means authority but not ownership.

    Again you avoid the fact that some slaves were not voluntarily slaves but slaves by force.

    The bible indicates to me that you will be tortured by fire and be alive.

    It came from the remnants debris from a large impact into the earth by an object of some kind. If I remember my science correctly.

    Yes and they are many times immoral.

    Nothing but there were real slaves at the time and these are literal rules for beating them without consequence for the owner. That is immoral and if you want to follow a god with those morals ok, but at least admit that this was the case fr non voluntary slaves.

    My dad never did anything to me that was immoral. He never severely beat me.

    You still avoid the obvious that some slaves were not indebted to the owner, they were forcibly taken into that slavery.

    I can surly disagree with laws and punishment in the society I live in. The fact is Exodud 21:20-21 is an immoral law no matter who commanded it.

    Because it goes to the character of the god you want me to believe in. If he existed I would have to make a choice, which really is not a choice with the threat of hell and all, to follow an immoral being and go against my morals or not and be punished for it.

    Would you be ok being my slave under the OT rules for slavery?

    No I didn't, we have laws and court systems to arbitrate this. We don't go enslaving people because they owe a debt.
     
  9. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    This has nothing to do with the actual slave rules given by your god to beat them. They are immoral.
     
  10. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    If you stay at that level you will never understand. You are looking at symptoms, and I am explaining causes. Do you want to know what is behind the slavery symptom...or not?

    But again, I am being kind. You are messing with the Creator of the universe. You are actually out of your element and have your nose where it does not belong. All of the suffering and immoral injustice that you are attempting to judge God for, was done on purpose because of people just like you. You are getting exactly what was intended. So, unless you really want to know the actual solution...you will get exactly what you deserve. Rise above the mire, or go down with it. Your choice.
     
  11. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I would say, morality is not mentioned in Scripture, but rather what is mentioned are Precepts...
    Which both have meanings regarding behavior between people.

    God sets the standard and principles for Precepts. You can agree and go along, or not agree and not be part of that group.

    It seems you are offended by a person being called a thing, or even perhaps an it.

    It did not in the least offend God to inform Mary of A "holy thing" in her womb.

    Luke 1
    [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    And exactly what DOES the Law that would send you to jail have to do with 6,000 yr old Mosaic Law?

    No I did not avoid anything. You simply did not get the answer you wanted.

    Perhaps you could share that Scripture.

    An impact to the Earth? Where did the Earth come from?

    And? So? That is behavior between men.
    What's the problem with God providing consequences He is content with.....
    Just as you provide the consequences in your own household?

    So? There are rules for executions too, and for incarcerations, and for planting crops, and for becoming born again....

    So? If you decide the punishment for your kids is A TIME OUT, or Grounding....and you leave them in Time out TOO long, or Ground them for longer than the rule....You are promoting YOU should have a Consequence?


    Of course it is my Option to follow and Subject myself to whatever I choose.

    My God taught, STAY OUT OF DEBT...Because you may NOT LIKE the consequences.

    You were never subjected to the Mosaic Laws and yet whine how you dislike such Laws...which is about as funny as you disliking Chinese Laws, or Islamic Laws, or any other Jewish Laws....and spending an enormous amount of time complaining about them.

    Laws are Laws, you don't like them, don't subject yourself to them.

    I'm not a Hebrew or Jew....so what they subject themselves to has not one iota effect on me.

    Dude, how much clearer language do you require. Historically Men head of a TRIBE had authority over EVERY member of the TRIBE.
    Men of a household had authority over EVERY member of the household.
    Are you utterly unaware a bargain struck between a father and another man being given the fathers daughter was a Binding agreement? She became the property of the other man...and the man dictates the rules of his household.

    In the US millions of fathers GIVE AWAY their daughters to other men....they say the words....but it is just tradition....as times have become more and more corrupt; Today marriages occur saying a life long promise, but have already been guaranteed the OPTION to break the promise as if it is already incorporated in the marriage contract.

    And? who defined immoral? You, your dad, who?

    Why not? Did you always do as your dad said? IF NOT, what was your Consequence?
    FOR EXAMPLE....
    Say your dad said to mow the lawn, and you didn't. What was your Consequence?

    Slavery is subjective, as I have already said.
    Give an Example of a specific Slave that has you so determined to Defend, as you say they were FORCED into being a SLAVE....

    You continue on your "moral" issue...(that by the way, does NOT apply to you)...
    but yet you have NOT Offered your ALTERNATIVE of what "YOU" think should have been done differently.

    So, do tell.

    Yes, it does speak to the character of God, teaching men to stay out of debt, to be true to their own word of doing what they say they will do, to subject themselves to the authority that governs over them, and be prepared for the consequences when they go into debt, when they don't keep their word, and when they refuse to submit to that which is in authority of governance over them.

    Yes, God set forth a plan to make Weak, whinny, untrustworthy men, strong and honorable and ultimately holy men.

    And No, I don't care if you believe in God.
    It is God who wants you to believe in Him.

    You call hell a threat. Is heaven also a threat?
    I do not find fortelling a person what consequences to Expect for whatever Choices they make to be a threat.

    And so, you reveal..."your morals". Guess that means YOU decide what is moral or not?

    I wouldn't even consider answering that question that has no application to me whatsoever.

    Well in the OT, there were rules for men who could not pay their debts to enslave themselves to pay off their debts.

    Today, we have laws that say you can not incarcerate a person FOR a debt....but our government is so clever, they Order a person to Pay their Debt, and if they can't, the government CAN and DOES incarcerate people for Disobeying a Court ORDER...
    See what a little cleverness can yield?
    Eh, it is simply a fine example of corruption.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  12. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    You have said before that as I understood your argument that god instituted slavery to show us how bad slavery is and that it is not Christians fault there is slavery but instead it is atheists fault slavery exists. That is like saying I should abuse my child to show them that abuse is wrong. That is immoral in my opinion.
     
  13. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Sketches don't have opinions.

    You completely misunderstand what I have been saying.

    You are a crumpled up sketch in God's garbage can (we all are), and He is standing over it saying, "Hello...up here...wakey, wakey. You blew it and that is fine if you really want to die when the trash man comes. But if not, pay attention because you are already gone, and it will take an act of God to bring you back. So, what's it going to be? Are you going to stick with your original sin idea that there is no god, or believe there is and be saved?"

    So...no, there is nothing immoral about God's handling of the trash. Trash has no moral standing to make such a claim.

    Welcome to your reality!
     
  14. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    Unfortunately I don't have this option. Christian values influence my life by their influence on my children textbooks, school curriculum, various laws that I may or may not agree with. So the morals Christians believe in affect my life. A rigid moral code which you are describing is problematic in my opinion. The same action could be moral or immoral in different contexts.

    I am. People are not objects to be bought and sold or abused.

    So, it's gods morals as described in the Bible that I have a problem with.

    Because owning another person and abusing them is wrong no matter what the culture is.

    o you never addressed slaves that are slaves by force not by choice.

    Mt 25:41, Mt 13:40-42, Mk 9:42-48, Rev 20:15.

    The expansion of the universe.

    Because they are immoral consequences even if a deity gave them. God does not have to be moral to exist.

    Some rules are moral and some are not.

    No these are not immoral acts. BTW in my opinion grounding and times outs don't work in the long run.

    It is.

    I agree, I do the same.

    Because they are not the subject of this discussion. These were real people being abused and the god you believe in said there would be no punishment for the abuse. Why should a god like this be followed?

    This is not the point of the discussion. The law was immoral that is something you I guess don't think is a problem or is immoral. Is severely beating a slave moral?

    Right, do you not care about anyone else? Do you care about sex slaves currently in the world just because it does not affect you?

    Not all rules are moral. This is what you are not getting. A man can be the head of the household but when he abuses his wife and kids then that is a problem and he should not be an example of a moral husband/father.

    [quote[In the US millions of fathers GIVE AWAY their daughters to other men....they say the words....but it is just tradition....as times have become more and more corrupt; Today marriages occur saying a life long promise, but have already been guaranteed the OPTION to break the promise as if it is already incorporated in the marriage contract.[/quote]So what, they are not selling them to slavery and VTW when a daughter is 18 she no longer needs permission to get married.

    I wrote how I determine morality in another thread I started to address this.

    What does this matter do the discussion? He never severely beat me with a rod as your bible says owners could do to slaves.

    Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev. 25:44-46 NIV

    Not have slaves.

    You still refuse to acknowledge that some slaves were not debt slaves but slaves by force.

    It is when god is the author of hell and the system to which we are saved. He is saying follow me or be tortured forever. That is a threat.

    Read my thread on this.

    Typical.

    Yes but the entire time you have ignored the forced slaves.

    This is only for willful non payment.

    Edited to add: Is it moral to own another person as property? yes/no? Is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/No.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019 at 4:46 PM
  15. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    Give me sufficient evidence that god exists and then we can talk.
     
  16. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't work that way. Trash does not demand evidence from other trash. That would tend to give you a false sense of reality.

    No, you can either come around to the reality that is actually true...or fade away with the one you "believe" is true. Ironic.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019 at 4:47 PM
  17. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    This is nonsensical BS giving evidence to believe that you cannot demonstrate that a god exists.
     
  18. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    What is nonsensical, is you demanding evidence under the circumstances (which you have no understanding of and will not hear). Would you ask one of Leonardo Da Vinci's throwaway pieces to give evidence of Leonardo's existence? That is just stupid...and yet exactly what you are purposing, and you don't even have a clue that you are doing it.

    Your loss.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019 at 6:31 PM
  19. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    Is it moral to own another person as property? is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/no?

    These are easy questions to answer.
     
  20. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    There are no other persons, only One begotten. The rest is manifest creation...within you.

    Evidence of God...hahahaa!

    You have answered already. Easy for you. You judge yourself. See you in the judgement.
     
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