Convince me of Annihilationism

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justbyfaith

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That thing about Jesus being the only one who is immortal might even be enough for me to change my pov...

However, I believe that when you look at Matthew 25:46, it teaches that the duration of the punishment spoken of in Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50 is that it is everlasting.

Therefore, I think that in order to say that this everlasing punishment is annihilation you might have to say that the people who are cast into the furnace of fire, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, are not really being punished; or that their punishment isn't everlasting.

If they are being punished then their their punishment isn't everlasting for the pov of annihilationism to be true.

But it is clear from Matthew 25:46 that the duration of their punishment is everlasting.

So then, when they are cast into the furnace of fire, and there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, they are not being punished?

It seems to me that if they are suddenly annihilated after being punished, that that would not be punishment but mercy...as they will no longer be experiencing the pain associated with their wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Therefore, annihilation would be everlasting mercy in comparison to what is spoken of in Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50.

And therefore also, everlasting punishment would be in conjunction with an everlasting experience in accordance with those verses.
 

justbyfaith

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I posted this on the subject in the other message board:

The nature of the everlasting punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The duration of it is that it will be everlasting.

If you do not isolate the verses but take them together, you would see that all three of them are speaking of the same thing.

To hold that everlasting wailing and gnashing of teeth is not what the afterlife is all about for the sinner who rejects Christ's forgiveness, to me, frankly, is wishful thinking. You can try to manipulate the scriptures so that they don't say what they actually say; but when you do this it says something about you: it means that you believe that you yourself are going to enter into a Christ-less eternity, and it somehow comforts you to think that the punishment is not as severe as what the scripture actually teaches it will be.

But I would say to you, why not simply receive Christ as your Lord and Saviour, instead of twisting the scriptures so that you can feel a little bit better about where you are going?
 

amadeus

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A, what is the verse that says "we don't write the way you read?" Bc reading...that is not going to work for him right now I guess.
The v maybe has the word language in it, not sure. Wanna say in Corinthians somewhere maybe
The wording you use rings no particulars bells, but I did search and came up with these which seem to relate to the idea:

“For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;” II Cor 1:13

Paul is speaking to believers trying to express it specifically without giving them a reason to misunderstand it in their reading. I would say that many who do read what he has written certainly however still definitely misunderstand. They don't read it the way that that he wrote it receiving a message that was not the message he intended to convey to the readers.

Then consider the writing of Pontius Pilate:

“And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.” John 19:19-22

The readers, the chief priests did not understand it as even Pontius Pilate, an apparently heathen Roman leader, intended it and they did not want to give any other readers the possibility of understanding it what they considered the wrong way. They wanted every one else to get into the groove of "my way or the highway".

Then consider these verses from Isaiah:

“Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:


That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear [read?] the law of the LORD:

Which say to the seers, See [read?] not; and to the prophets, Prophesy [read?] not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.

And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.” Isaiah 30:8-14
 
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amadeus

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ah, sorry about that. I usually sleep pretty good, but i'm on walkabout and made a major move, so some adjustment period is normal I guess.
Rhode Island is not an island, who knew? Softest muni water I ever felt though, man, ima go take a shower right now! lol. I just got some goat soap too; feels like ten virgins giving a massage :D

are you exhausting yourself at least once twice a day? It even sounds...cleansing, huh? Exhaust
fwiw swimming and yoga, senior yoga (youtube) might serve you. See how long you can dog paddle in a pool without stopping lol, pretty sure you'll be wanting a little lie-down right after :)

you aren't supping melatonin, are you?
My wife has tried several different over the counter products which usually work for her, but not for me. Actually when I sleep, I sleep well using a bipap machine, but that is not my present problem. My problem is waking up after 3 or 5 or 7 hours of sleep and really needing more rest. Once I am wide awake I simply get up and read/study my Bible and talk to God... or work on my stamp collection, or sometimes I may even get on a forum like this one... until I feel my eyelids getting heavy again. So long as I have nothing on the schedule first thing in the morning this works fine, but there are too often reasons I need get up and get going before this old lump of flesh is really ready to do so.

As to the pool, several few years ago when we still had our own home we actually had a swimming pool in the back yard. My grandchildren loved it until they got tired of it. I couldn't afford to pay to have some take care of the cleaning and chemical balances, etc. for me so it was my job. After a few years of taking caring of that pool 7 days a week I was ready to have it filled in with a few truckloads of dirt. Never again!
 
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Helen

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I want to believe in Annihilationism


Hello

I must confess I have not read all the pages or all the posts.
( I have read my friend @amadeus posts. :) )

My question would be...why "do you want to believe in annihilation ?"

Just take it one step further...see God as even greater...and His Plan more wonderful ...and "want to" believe in The Restoration of All things!

<The fullness of God’s presence among his people necessarily demands the banishment of any and all forms of suffering associated with the old creation. Gone forever are the debilitating effects of sin (Rev. 21:3–4). Gone are the tears caused by grief and pain and moral failure (in fulfillment of Isa. 25:8). Gone is death, because its source, sin, will have been eradicated. Gone are mourning, crying, and pain. All such experiences are linked to the “first things” which have now “passed away.” The New Jerusalem is said to have “the glory of God” (Rev. 21:11). Whereas in the Old Testament the physical temple was the place where God’s glory resided and was manifested, in the new creation God’s presence will abide in and with his people. The absence of “night” (Rev. 21:25b) points to the unhindered access to God’s radiant presence as well as to the fact that there will be no darkness to dim the brilliance of divine splendour. Indeed, as Revelation 22:5 indicates, the absence of darkness is due to the continual illumination that God himself provides. In Revelation 22:1 >

Acts 3:21

21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Just saying.... :)
 

bbyrd009

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My wife has tried several different over the counter products which usually work for her, but not for me. Actually when I sleep, I sleep well using a bipap machine, but that is not my present problem. My problem is waking up after 3 or 5 or 7 hours of sleep and really needing more rest. Once I am wide awake I simply get up and read/study my Bible and talk to God... or work on my stamp collection, or sometimes I may even get on a forum like this one... until I feel my eyelids getting heavy again. So long as I have nothing on the schedule first thing in the morning this works fine, but there are too often reasons I need get up and get going before this old lump of flesh is really ready to do so.

As to the pool, several few years ago when we still had our own home we actually had a swimming pool in the back yard. My grandchildren loved it until they got tired of it. I couldn't afford to pay to have some take care of the cleaning and chemical balances, etc. for me so it was my job. After a few years of taking caring of that pool 7 days a week I was ready to have it filled in with a few truckloads of dirt. Never again!
ha ya been there. Ppl have actually figured out how to turn pools into like ponds that you can still swim in, no chemicals etc i guess? I've never seen one irl yet tho, but the reviews are good
 

amadeus

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ha ya been there. Ppl have actually figured out how to turn pools into like ponds that you can still swim in, no chemicals etc i guess? I've never seen one irl yet tho, but the reviews are good
Too little too late... not to mention the critters that would get into my pool which always had the high extra chemical content to keep it looking nice as well as swimmable and should have made it repugnant to them.

Huge volumes of earthworms I had to regularly skim out with a net.
Water snakes did not realize I guess that it was not so nice at all.
More than one baby critter born underneath my shed ended up drowning in the pool … as while it was easy to get in, for them it was impossible to get out and apparently mamas were unable to help. [Once my large border collie during the winter went out on top of the two covering tarps and found the place where they overlapped. She slipped between the tarps into the pool which had a thick layer of ice form on its surface beneath the tarps. She could not get out and she was an excellent swimmer. I ended up in the icy water to save her and my wife had to help keep me from getting pneumonia. I do have a good stories about the pool but they are not as memorable.] Again... never again!
 
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bbyrd009

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Since He is Omniscient I think He would be able to see through any such duplicity.
jbf, you are wadr demonstrating In Living Color ezackly what our problem is in reading Scripture now, wadr.
Of course our Father is completely immune to child psychology, yes, and i don't even blame you for reading from that pov ok, Bc that is a perfectly acceptable and understandable literal interpretation, that i did not stop to think anyone would even entertain.

I meant using a little child psychology, on His children? Now granted i am just an idiot and did that accidentally, but...Eastern thinkers--Bible authors iow--sit around and bounce phrases like that off each other until they are honed to a razor edge, before they write them down i guess. They are doing that on purpose iow
 

bbyrd009

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it's patently easy to reveal literalism as hypocrisy; to everyone else but the literalist
:)

There is the example of King Saul and the medium of Endor, and Samuel, who came from the place of the dead and spoke with Saul, prophesying the outcome of the battle.

This is very plain Scripture.
so you say
yet you do not buy "you and your sons will be here with me"
hmm
very plain Scripture, marks
marks said:
...nothing
like you'll touch that with a ten foot pole i guess huh
Perhaps you have addressed your POV of this passage elsewhere, I don't know.
do your apologies end up sounding like "i'm sorry you don't understand," too, marks?
Jesus
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.



Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.” (Psalm 37:10) How those words encourage us as we approach the end of this system and the culmination of disastrous independence from Jehovah! Whatever kind of government or authority has been devised by man has failed miserably. And now we are nearing the time for a return to rule by God, true theocracy, the Kingdom of Jehovah in the hands of Jesus Christ. It will take complete control of the world’s affairs and remove all opposers of God’s Kingdom.—Daniel 2:44.

19 In the new world under God’s Kingdom, search as you may, you will not be able to find a “wicked one.” Indeed, anyone who then rebels against Jehovah will quickly be removed. No one who attacks his sovereignty or who refuses to submit to godly authority will be there. All your neighbors will be like-minded in their desire to please Jehovah. What security that will bring—no locks, no bars, nothing that will mar complete trust and happiness!—Isaiah 65:20; Micah 4:4; 2 Peter 3:13.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.


The Bible clearly speaks of a future paradise on earth. For example, the prophet Isaiah described the earth and its inhabitants in this way: “They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.” (Isaiah 65:21, 22) The Jews, to whom God gave these promises, were certain that their land—indeed, the whole earth—would one day become a paradise for mankind’s everlasting benefit.

Psalm 37 confirms this hope. “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth.” (Psalm 37:11) This verse is not talking about just a temporary restoration of the nation of Israel to the Promised Land. The same psalm specifies: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29)* Note that this psalm says that everlasting life on earth is to be a reward for “the meek.” In a French Bible, a comment on this verse says that the word “meek” “has a far wider meaning than is apparent in translations; it includes the unfortunate, those afflicted or persecuted for Yahweh’s sake, humble hearts that are submissive to God.”

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus made a promise that reminds us of the scriptures quoted above: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:5, Revised Standard Version) Once again, the earth is to be a lasting reward for the faithful. However, Jesus made it clear to his apostles that he was preparing a place for them “in the house of [his] Father” and that they would be in heaven with him. (John 14:1, 2; Luke 12:32; 1 Peter 1:3, 4) How, then, should we understand promises of earthly blessings? Are they relevant today, and to whom do they apply?

Jehovah certainly “delighted” in creating the earth for mankind. At the end of the sixth creative day, he declared that everything was “very good.” (Genesis 1:31) The transformation of the earth into a lasting paradise is part of the divine purpose that has not yet been accomplished. Nevertheless, God’s promises ‘will not return to him without results.’ All the promises of perfect life on earth, where humans will live eternally in peace and security, will be fulfilled.—Psalm 135:6; Isaiah 46:10.

The sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve, temporarily disturbed God’s original purpose of making the earth a paradise. After their disobedience, they were expelled from the garden. They thus lost the privilege of sharing in the fulfillment of the divine purpose of having perfect humans reside on a paradise earth. Still, God arranged things to accomplish his purpose. How?—Genesis 3:17-19, 23.

God made arrangements to ensure the accomplishment of his purpose. Soon after the sin of our first parents, he announced a hope for their descendants—a “seed” who would undo the damage done. In fulfilling this prophecy, the primary part of the seed proved to be God’s Son, Jesus, who came to earth and offered his life as a sacrifice to repurchase mankind. (Galatians 3:16; Matthew 20:28)

Once resurrected to heaven, Jesus would become the King of the Kingdom. Primarily, he is the meek one who inherits the earth. In time, this government will take earth’s affairs in hand in order to accomplish God’s original purpose and transform the earth into a paradise. Countless millions of meek ones “inherit the earth” in the sense that they benefit from the rule of this Kingdom by Jesus Christ and his corulers.—Genesis 3:15; Daniel 2:44; Acts 2:32, 33; Revelation 20:5, 6.

In his model prayer, Jesus invited his disciples to pray for God’s will to take place “as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matthew 6:9, 10) Would these words make sense if the earth disappeared. Would they make sense if all the righteous went to heaven? God’s will for the earth is clearly evident in the Scriptures, from the account of the creation right up to the visions of the book of Revelation. The earth is to become what God purposed—a paradise. This is the will that God promises to accomplish. The faithful on earth pray for the fulfillment of that will.
 
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Harvest 1874

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Then you have not read the Bible.
Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Eternal Punishment : Greek, kolasin, cutting off, pruning or lopping off; To restrain by cutting off. In this case complete restraint, the restraint of death. Everlasting cutting off from life, from the Lord, and from all hope of life.

The punishment it self according to the scriptures is death, the wages of sin is death, plain and simple. The soul that sins it shall die (cease to be) nothing is said about suffering and thus no embellishment is necessary. Such is only men adding to the words of God.

In this text eternal punishment (death) is being contrasted with eternal life, both are to be eternal, perpetual and everlasting.
 
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friend of

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The soul that sins it shall die (cease to be) nothing is said about suffering and thus no embellishment is necessary. Such is only men adding to the words of God.

How do you explain Matthew 5:29-30 ? Or Mark 9:48 ?

Nobody is adding to the words of God there.
 
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brakelite

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you're a pebble on the edge of a cliff, and you're looking up?
Well, I probably would have been better off probably looking up before I got even close to the cliff. But now I'm there, yes, looking up becomes even more urgent, "for without Me ye can do nothing".
 
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