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Featured Convince me of Annihilationism

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by friend of, May 14, 2019.

  1. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    Remember CoreIssue follows the false prophet... well he has so many of them its hard to remember all their names, just check out some of the numerous videos he's posted on this site for a list of them. All men with itching ears dedicated to telling him just what he wants to hear.
     
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  2. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    One can hardly be described as 'immortal' I think so long as his life is still dependant upon another. Thus while the enduring (eternal IOW) nature of it is guaranteed as a gift, it is by its very nature conditional or subservient to the power that provides for its longevity.
     
  3. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    So one who is permanently dead, (a death for which there is no provision made for a resurrection) because they do not know the Father and the Son, is still alive seeing they 'still exist'? If therefore they are still alive, presumably forever suffering, (seeing suffering at all surely indicates some form of cognitive reality=life) do they not live eternally , thus having 'eternal life'?
    Now I am fully aware of what John 17:3 says, but can we divorce the relationship with God that for us is the criteria for being a part of God who begets, creates and sustains life, from the conscious reality of experiencing it? Thus is it not incumbent upon you to prove that the sinners are equal recipients of that life which enables them to experience the eternal suffering and torment so many claim is their 'just reward'?
     
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  4. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Yes, knowing God is the essence of having eternal life, for without them it simply cannot be. But are you saying eternal life is not existing forever? Are you suggesting there is an end to the existence of the redeemed, while the sinner does exist forever in torment?
     
  5. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Eternal torment is often described as being outside of the presence of God. Separated from Him forever. Yet we know that it is God who sustains life in its myriad of forms...(Col 1:17)...who keeps everything intact. How then can anything, regardless of its state of consciousness, remain intact or in existence at all separated from its only source of sustaining power? The continuing existence of people in eternal torment, at least to my mind, can only be explained by the assumption that God to some extent or measure, deliberately empowers their existence, presumably for the express purpose of experiencing pain. Now sorry, if this offends anyone, but that isn't the God of the Bible.
     
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  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Name the false prophet.

    If you don't like what the video say, refute them with the Bible.
     
  7. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    If you don't like what we post refute it with the bible, not with some video you got off of Youtube.
     
  8. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    The videos contain the Bible verses needed.
     
  9. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    We shall attempt to explain these verses howbeit you will have to accept that this comes from a false prophet according to CoreIssue, and he should know being he’s an authority on false prophets, or so he imagines, nevertheless a truth spoken is still a truth even if it be spoken by the Adversary himself.

    If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell (Gehenna). And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell (Gehenna).” Matt 5:29-30

    These are the same words our Lord used in Matt 18:8, 9

    Did our Lord advocate self-mutilation? Obviously not he healed men, he restored their hands and feet and eyes. We must therefore conclude that symbolic terms are being used here.

    The scripture simply and powerfully teaches that it is better for a Christian to cut off and eliminate from his life things as dear to him as a hand, foot, or an eye if such things would prevent him from making his calling and election sure. Such eradication would be better than to fail of his calling and lose his eternal existence in the second death (hell fire, the lake of fire).

    Rev 20:14; 21:8 gives the proper explanation as to what the lake of fire actually is,This is the second death”, from which there is no resurrection. The lake of fire is the symbolic expression denoting destruction, permanent destruction, annihilation, or extinction of being.

    The wordGehenna” rendered “Hell” in the following passages (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:5; Jas. 3:6) is the Grecian mode of spelling the Hebrew words, which are, translated "Valley of Hinnom." This valley lay just outside the city of Jerusalem, and served the purpose of sewer and garbage burner to that city. The offal, garbage, etc., were emptied there, and fires were kept continually burning to consume utterly all things deposited therein, brimstone being added to assist combustion and insure complete destruction. But no living thing was ever permitted to be cast into Gehenna.

    Corpses were thrown in Gehenna, not live bodies. Therefore, the idea of eternal torment (conscious suffering) IS NOT taught by the Valley of Hinnom. The remains were destroyed.

    When we consider that in the people of Israel God was giving us object lessons illustrating his dealings and plans, present and future, we should expect that this Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, would also play its part in illustrating things future.

    While Gehenna served a useful purpose to the city of Jerusalem as a place for garbage burning, it, like the city itself, was typical, and illustrated the future dealings of God in refusing and committing to destruction all the impure elements, thus preventing them from defiling the holy city, the New Jerusalem, after the trial of the Millennial age of judgment shall have fully proved mankind and separated with unerring accuracy the "sheep" from the "goats."

    So, then, Gehenna was a type or illustration of the Second Death--final and complete destruction, from which there can be no recovery; for after that, "there remains no more sacrifice for sins," but only "fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb. 10:26)

    Our next text:

    And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” (Mark 9:47-48)

    Once again the proper rendering is Gehenna not “Hell” in this text. Likewise the same lesson is being taught.

    If our hand, foot, or eye causes us to sin, we are to get rid of it, figuratively speaking. If one of these is cut off, there is a lack, but if two (both) are cut off, the implication is Second Death. Why? Because the person has not attempted to curb the problem, an ingrained character fault or defect must be uprooted.

    Verse 48 is based on Isa 66:24 (the last verse of the Book of Isaiah), which refers to the destruction of Gog and Magog at the end of the Gospel Age. A cemetery in Israel will be called Hamon-gog.

    In regard to the worm not dying and the fire never being extinguished—this is to be an everlasting perpetual lesson. As the people go by, they will see the cemetery, and most likely some kind of audiovisual record will tell why and how God destroyed Gog and Magog. While a worm literally dies and a fire can be extinguished, the lesson itself will continue. Hence the worm and fire are figurative.

    Who would ever think that a worm could be immortal?

    When dead bodies were thrown in the Valley of Hinnom, most were destroyed with fire, but if a body landed on a ledge, worms destroyed the body. Thus the Valley of Hinnom is a good picture of Second Death.

    Here in Mark the worm and the fire are associated with Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, i.e., Second Death, which will never be destroyed. Adamic death will be destroyed but not Second Death. God will always have the prerogative, if He so desires, to expunge a life.
     
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  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    And yet the Bible says mom's never die. But they die if the body the feeding on ceases to exist.

    Therefore your definition of the second death is wrong.

    Separation from God does not mean ceasing to exist.
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    So says Ellen G White.
     
  12. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    YES, YES, YES...It is not within His Nature.
    He is the God of redemption.
    Punishment (many or few stripes ) yes...but “forever pain”, it blows my mind that people can read the bible and make that 'Gods intent'!.

    As for the people who say- “God didn’t send them, they sent them self “....phttt :rolleyes:

    God is God, we are dust....man was a fool from the beginning....
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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  13. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    You, sir, are a giant among men and have my utmost respect. Choosing to work through CD rather than just retreating to the safety of the old to escape the threat of the new? Rare.
    Go right ahead.
    Doesn't mean natural causes didn't get him. Not at all. "It is appointed unto man once to die..."

    Because the point at which the saints are inside the city and the wicked outside the city is at the resurrection of the damned just before the New Heavens and New Earth.

    Bible says:

    • Jesus comes in the clouds to collect the "dead in Christ" and "we that are alive and remain" aka "rapture" while simultaneously the wicked drop dead all over the Earth as it and the atmosphere catches on fire.
    • 1,000 years go by with Satan and his demons down here with nothing to do but contemplate their post-millennial fate, while the saints are home in heaven judging demons, sinners, and vindicating God's judgments with "just and true are thy ways, O king of saints".
    • After 1,000 years, New Jerusalem is transported to Earth and settles in the "great plain" formed by the split mountain, and as it comes to rest there, the wicked are called forth form their sleep to stand in judgment.
    • Satan deceives the multitudes of sinners outside the city into joining him in one final stand (Armageddon) against those inside the city, and they make ready to battle, but the battle is already over before it's begun. (Revelation 22:15)
    • White throne judgment commences, where conviction fills the hearts of all sinnners
    • Everyone of them including Satan drops down and confesses Jesus was right
    • They take to their feet in one last desperate attempt to save themselves from the destruction they know is coming, but Fire begins falling, turning the entire planet into a seething Lake of Fire which consumes them.
    • Only then is the New Heaven and New Earth created.
    Sure, I've not listed any Scripture but am willing to if you have a question.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    But you're not sticking to the chronology of scripture. Doing that involves understanding the order of events, not just thinking everything always flows in sequence.

    The reason why the Rev.22:14-15 Scripture belongs to the timing of Christ's millennial reign of Rev.20 is because the wicked are shown still there outside the beloved city.

    Rev 22:14-15
    14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    KJV

    You have to continue the subject about the gates of that city into that 15th verse about the wicked right outside it.

    Rev.20 reveals that after the "thousand years", God's Great White Throne judgement begins and the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire". And even hell is cast into the lake of fire then. But these outside the holy city aren't dealt with just yet. And Ezekiel 47 shows God's River manifesting on earth again with its waters flowing out of the millennial sanctuary, with the tree of life. It's an important link to that timing of Christ's future reign, and prevents man's doctrines of preaching about sand castles up in the sky during Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    God is indeed a God of justice; and the Bible proclaims that He has wrath against sin.
     
  16. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly the reason you're wrong. Rev 22 takes place after death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. You're telling me that the devil will still be active after the creation of new heavens new earth (aka NOT the Millenial Kingdom). It makes no sense that God would permit the devil to mess around with God's new Eden.

    The reason what your attempting to convey makes no sense is because Gog and Magog occurs in Revelation 20:7-10

    The Great White Throne Judgement clearly occurs in Revelation 20:11-15 before all things are made new.

    If you're going to suggest that I'm holding to man-interpreted doctrine, you are going to have to accuse me of reading Revelation chronologically. Revelation 20 does not support what you're saying. Revelation 21-22 are NOT talking about the Millenial Kingdom.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  17. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    o_O who me?

    Interesting. Haven't read it exactly like that before. A few things ive noticed though, in your first point you say that the atmosphere catches fire, wouldn't that make the whole planet uninhabitable and turn it into a lake of fire already? On your second point, scriptures do say that only satan is locked in "the Abyss" but you wrote that he'll be "here" and that the demons will be with him. I've understood that he will be completely isolated unable to influence any living thing at all. When it comes to Revelation 22:15, I'm not sure the judgement of those people hasn't already taken place, the verse is just referencing all those who are not in the new kingdom.

    I find it interesting that your concept of the 1000 year reign is quite different from Davy's, since you believe the 1000 year reign will take place in the heavens and he does not, as shown by this post of his-

    I personally don't know where the 1000 year reign will take place (heavens or earth) but I think you make a good point that it could be in heaven since New Jerusalem comes down later on.
     
  18. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    I don't consider myself a ranking authority on who is or is not a false prophet and I'm not going to tell you or anyone else here who they follow.

    Thanks for your response.
     
  19. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    ...which was poured out upon the shoulders of Jesus.

    "God saw the travail of His soul, and was satisfied. "
     
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  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    Ha, yes, also a good reflection


    you might consider the analogy of walking through a door covered in blood and crossing a sea of reeds into a wilderness to wander akin to falling off a cliff, same with leaving the world. So iow looking up in that sense would still be implied

    hmm also wandering too close to a literal reading of some um Central Commands, see, by Christ, might cause a "spiritual" response from us when we want to
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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