Defending Homosexuality

[Reggie Belafonte]

The original language uses other words that mean fornication and promiscuity.
There was no term for a homosexual but the crime of fornication or promiscuity
was no different for gays or straights.

But for the sake of your argument, lets lump gays in with the rest of the list:

Elton John age 71

Neil Patrick Harris age 45

Ian McKellen age 79

Then the argument is that these men are
idolaters
adulterers
thieves
greedy
drunkards
verbal abusers
and or swindlers.

Killers of father or mother,
murderers
slave traders
liars and/or perjurers.

Is it that gays will be filling these groups?
Is the logical assumption that all these groups are likely to be gay?
What connection have you found?

Such people you put up are idols and one should never idolise anyone as such is a Grave Sin to idolise anyone.
This people you put forward are all under great delusions and a bad influence on people all over the world and they reject God, so they sure are going to Hell if they promote their Homosexual filth, just as anyone will reject God does.
I do not know the 45yo boy but I know the other two's point of views on God.
A homosexual is never a real Man as such he is only a boy regardless and all true men know this for a fact and a woman knows it's a fact that such is so with a girl is not truly a woman.

Hey I can like such people, don't get me wrong, but I will not accept them as Gods people. because it's a grave Sin they commit Sodomy and it should be seen for what it truly is and not peddled as a way of life at all because it's a culture of death, their soul is corrupted.
Adam and Eve it was, not Adam and steve you know. no one could be so stupid to fall for the homosexual BS line as it's been condemned for over 4000 years until now that the power of the great Satan is tempting and corrupting the world with such lies.

One was a Sin punishable by death in the OT, so that is the gravity of the charge, because it's an offence on God and his creation and Israel 'the servants of God' does not abide is such at all ever.
Homosexual practice is an insult to God and has no place in the Kingdom of God, they can not enter.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

That's true at least you have that correct but I when I see Sin in my life I don't work to encourage such, now do you ?
I hate the Sin but love the Sinner, so this means I will try to work to save my neighbour from his sin the best that I can, not is that wrong to you ? I am trying to build himself up to be a man, not a grovelling dupe.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

My reference was to scripture, not reality.

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

How do you think I found out about Priscilla? The Apostle Paul obviously did allow Priscilla to teach and have authority over Apollos. So we must look for a deeper reason for Paul to say the 1 Timothy reference. He was writing specifically about untutored Gentile women as well as Gentile female slaves who were flooding into the churches--the church at Ephesus (where Timothy was the pastor) was no exception.

There are likely several reasons for this dissonance. 1) Priscilla was a Jew. Some have speculated that she might have been the daughter of a rabbi as she seemed to be respected for having knowledge of the Jewish Scriptures. 2) Gentile women were treated as second class citizens throughout the thoroughly male-dominated Roman Empire. Even high-born Gentile women in the Roman Empire were unlikely to have much more than an elementary education--it was thought that they would become pretentious bores, if they studied philosophy or mathematics. Most middle class and lower class women did not attend schooling of any kind. They were expected to concentrate on the skills which would make them good housewives and mothers. Religious education of any kind would have been thought especially unseemly in women. They were expected to follow whatever religion (or no religion) their husbands followed. There must have been quite a bit of consternation in the homes of Gentile women who embraced Christianity. But, by that time, in the early part of the 1st century A.D., even Roman male-dominance was beginning to be softened a bit, so they apparently got away with it, even though it must have ruffled a few feathers. Paul must have had to do a delicate balancing act between encouraging reform and not upsetting the Roman authorities too much. He eventually lost his life as a martyr to the cause but he must have died a happy man, as the gospel was spreading like wildfire. Even the mighty Roman Empire could not stop it from going forward.

One of the things which attracted Gentile women to Christianity was the greater freedom enjoyed by Jewish women, who were permitted to own their own property, for example, and were often educated in Torah, to some degree. In contrast, a Gentile woman in the Roman Empire was thought to be owned by her father until she was owned by her husband. You can imagine how offensive it would be to Gentile men to have women presume to take any kind of leadership or teach men. Paul already had his problems with the Roman authorities which is displayed in the New Testament. What was of paramount importance to Paul, was that the gospel go forward--he wasn't out to immediately reform society. The gospel would have not had the early success that it had, had he upset those in authority even more than he already had--his preaching and establishment of churches would have come to an even quicker end.

In verse 15, one must see it in light of the very, very high maternal mortality rate present throughout the Roman Empire. It was complicated by the approval of marrying off very young brides (as young as twelve) and the very high rate of venereal disease among the Gentiles--marital faithfulness was not particularly celebrated--adultery was quite common. Jewish women were said to have had a much lower rate of maternal mortality because of the emphasis on godly chastity (for both men and women) and Jewish women did not typically marry until they were at least fourteen. In addition, Jewish midwives were much more knowledgeable about the role of cleanliness in preventing infection. Because of the high maternal mortality rate, Gentile women were often terrified of childbirth, but Paul was assuring them that God would protect ("save") them through their childbearing years, if they continued to live in chastity and faith. The OT, gospels and epistles were carefully copied and taught in all the churches--it would have been edifying to all of the Gentiles.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

You know what I see 'some homosexuals' as not a real problem, on the scale of depravity lets say ?

One has the little boy type and then we can progress to the worst of the worst depraved type that runabout like dogs, not to mention that we have heterosexuals who are depraved morons as well who's madness, is not about a loving relationship at all, but such is a curse not to mention a blight on society because it's deranged not to mention a big problem as the wagers of Sin are death.

I have seen peoples lives over my life time and seen the works of such are a curse on all.
Phrase the Lord that I did not get hooked up in that way of life. Saints be phrased !

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I highly suggest you leave the judgment of believers till Jesus returns as well.

By then, it will be too late and we will face censure from the Lord for allowing our churches to be polluted with sexual sin--just as He censured the leadership of the church at Thyatira. We are TOLD to judge open sexual sin in the churches--I have pointed out the Scriptures which tell us to judge sin among believers--with a "right judgment" of course and in a spirit of kindness, humility and gentleness.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

I see that you left out the first part of the quote which is to love God. If you love God, you will obey Him and He says, in Leviticus 18:22--> “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination." If someone loves God, why would they want to do something that He considers an "abomination"?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You seem to forget that while God loves everyone, he still sends people to the lake of fire for eternity.

Homosexuality is high on the condemned list.

Agreed. If one really loved his/her neighbor, he/she would try to dissuade that person from behavior that will get them sent to hell, if they do not repent.

 

[CoreIssue]

Agreed. If one really loved his/her neighbor, he/she would try to dissuade that person from behavior that will get them sent to hell, if they do not repent.

Absolutely

 

[tzcho2]

The original language uses other words that mean fornication and promiscuity.

You really don't get the Bible do you? & seem to have some hostility towards it.
Why do you go on Christian forums pretending to be Christian?

 

[SkyWriting]

By then, it will be too late and we will face censure from the Lord for allowing our churches to be polluted with sexual sin--just as He censured the leadership of the church at Thyatira. We are TOLD to judge open sexual sin in the churches--I have pointed out the Scriptures which tell us to judge sin among believers--with a "right judgment" of course and in a spirit of kindness, humility and gentleness.

The church you attend has the same levels of adultery, alcoholism, and divorce as the general population.
So you do not have a point if your goal is to have a pure church group.
And if that is your intent, you are in a cult. Sorry to inform you. You are in danger.
Please don't drink the church cool-aid.

 

[SkyWriting]

Such people you put up are idols and one should never idolise anyone as such is a Grave Sin to idolise anyone.This people you put forward are all under great delusions and a bad influence on people all over the world and they reject God, so they sure are going to Hell if they promote their Homosexual filth, just as anyone will reject God does.I do not know the 45yo boy but I know the other two's point of views on God.A homosexual is never a real Man as such he is only a boy regardless and all true men know this for a fact and a woman knows it's a fact that such is so with a girl is not truly a woman.Hey I can like such people, don't get me wrong, but I will not accept them as Gods people. because it's a grave Sin they commit Sodomy and it should be seen for what it truly is and not peddled as a way of life at all because it's a culture of death, their soul is corrupted.Adam and Eve it was, not Adam and steve you know. no one could be so stupid to fall for the homosexual BS line as it's been condemned for over 4000 years until now that the power of the great Satan is tempting and corrupting the world with such lies. One was a Sin punishable by death in the OT, so that is the gravity of the charge, because it's an offence on God and his creation and Israel 'the servants of God' does not abide is such at all ever.Homosexual practice is an insult to God and has no place in the Kingdom of God, they can not enter.

You really don't get the Bible do you? & seem to have some hostility towards it.
Why do you go on Christian forums pretending to be Christian?

I understand your aversion to sodomy. And it's valid in many ways. Sodom was a place ....well, lets use an illustration you are familiar with. Sodom was like a Roman orgy. The place had all the characteristics of a Roman Orgy like you've seen in the movies.

So.

Such people are referred to as "Sodomites."

So

People who conduct their lives like a Roman Orgy are given the term "Sodomites."

So

People who have Orgies and sex outside of marriage, and sleep with multiple partners are "Sodomites." All correct.

These are the individuals that scripture is really, actually referring to. "Sodomites" having sexual relations with multiple partners and orgies.

You can check the Greek Hebrew and Latin. "Sodomites" is the base word and idea.

Now.

Society has recognised that most gays do not want to live like that. They do not want to sleep around, not want to have orgies, not want to have sex outside of commitment, not want to give in to lust that ruins their lives. So WE invented a new word that describes these people that does not have the same connotations. This word does not include any reference to Sodom because theses people wouldn't want to live like that either.

The word we invented is "Homosexual" and it only refers to the fact that these people find close relationships with their own sex to be more fulfilling than with the opposite sex. And being a man, I fully understand 100% of the lesbian situation. I have met very few men who are not royal jerks. The vast majority of men are self-centered jerks who do not treat women with love and sensitivity as they would like. Myself included.

I have been close with only a couple men who are not family members. But I have no sexual attraction to men.
So I understand completely why some women would not want to put up with men and find their company to be too much to bear.
I don't blame them. A good number of Men are jerks who can't see past their penis in a relationship.

So I get the lesbian thing. I personally get it. Men are not good partners in intimacy.

So I'd never blame a woman for not finding intimacy satisfying with a man. And "sex" is not all that fluid for people. I had a crush on a redhead when I was a kid, and she had a strong interest in me. It never went far, but we REALLY enjoyed the interest we had in each other....and that craving interest in redheads has never left me. Lucky for me, my wife has chosen to keep that color tone going. Likely it has saved our marriage a couple times.

So i CAN UNDERSTAND THE fascination with a certain type of person that get imbedded in a person and it's very hard to ever shake it.

But
back to scripture. All the "Homosexual" references in scripture are directly to Sodom.

At no point in scripture are they referring purely to a person's sexual orientation. They are referring to sexual Orgies, or sex outside of marriage, or sex with both genders at the same time, or one after another, or multiple partners, or leaving your spouse for another person.

Re-read those passages. The passages often spell out exactly which of those bad sex actions it is referring to.


And we all agree that sexual orgies with multiple sex partners and multiple genders are bad mentally and physically.

But

Most gays do not want to live like that either. They just want one person to be intimate with and settle down and live life.

Why did I stop persecuting the gay lifestyle? Because after 20 years in gay neighborhood I learned...NOT to tolerate orgies....but I learned from personal experience that these are normal, non-orgie people, who don't even have big parties and sleep overs. They usually live lonely secluded lives. And if couples...they have friends over who sit in lawn chairs and chat around the firepit and laugh and live normal boring lives.

Maybe not. Maybe their lives are not as boring as they look. But these homosexuals are not Sodomites. They don't sleep around, they are not given to lust...(I don't even see hugs or hand holding) they don't drink excessively or do anything on the Sodom list. If they have sex...I'm not seeing it.

So, it's wrong to say they are not getting into heaven.

Most gays are not Sodomites and scripture is only referring to Sodomites. It was actually liberals that did a disservice to gays. They translated Sodomite into "homosexual" Because "sensitive" people did not like the term "Sodomites."

That was a mistake to be so "modern" and up-to-date because most Homosexuals are not into the Sodomite lifestyle, at all.

 

[SkyWriting]

Agreed. If one really loved his/her neighbor, he/she would try to dissuade that person from behavior that will get them sent to hell, if they do not repent.

I agree completely. I would certainly think I would do that. Sadly, I did not. My neighbor died from "natural causes" after a lifetime of alcoholism, her alcoholic husband had crazy parties, was drunk constantly, sold drugs, got arrested, left his home abandoned...and I did nothing to stop it. He and I weren't close. I spoke to him but his speech was slurred most of the time. I guess I didn't love the drunk that much that I would interfere with his demise. Much of our neighborhood keeps to themselves.

 

[SkyWriting]

I see that you left out the first part of the quote which is to love God. If you love God, you will obey Him and He says, in Leviticus 18:22--> “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination." If someone loves God, why would they want to do something that He considers an "abomination"?

I agree. Sleeping with both is bad in multiple ways.

Anything other than one sex partner in your life, for the duration of your life, is an abomination.

 

[SkyWriting]

That's true at least you have that correct but I when I see Sin in my life I don't work to encourage such, now do you ?
I hate the Sin but love the Sinner, so this means I will try to work to save my neighbour from his sin the best that I can, not is that wrong to you ? I am trying to build himself up to be a man, not a grovelling dupe.

If you like people trying to change you, then you have permission to try to change others lifestyle.
But I prefer the lifestyle of my gay neighbors. No police, no yelling, no parties, no drug traffic, no people traffic.

I have a new neighbor two doors down. His stumbling drunk wife died and left him to party party party. Evidently drug dealing got him and the house was empty for about a year. A nice friendly lady moved in. I hope she is gay. I never have any problems with my gay neighbors.

So that's my issue with gays. I don't endorse sodomites. I even understand lesbians, guys are idiots. And I have no sexual interest in men. But after 20 years of experience, I certainly prefer gays for neighbors.

And scripture has a long list of details on how to treat all of my neighbors.

What Does the Bible Say About Neighbors?

 

[Pearl]

That was clearly not the case in Paul's day. Priscilla was a leader in the church. Women were also prophets. I will give you the Scripture references if you like.

Some sources say Junia was woman too and she is described as an Apostle.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The church you attend has the same levels of adultery, alcoholism, and divorce as the general population.
So you do not have a point if your goal is to have a pure church group.
And if that is your intent, you are in a cult. Sorry to inform you. You are in danger.
Please don't drink the church cool-aid.

I attend a house church and I know all of the other members very well. There are no adulterers, alcoholics or divorces among us. It is not MY goal to have a purifying church--the Lord Jesus demands it. I well understand what a cult is and my house church has never had any of those aspects--you are mistaken. You "inform" me of nothing--it is you who are in danger. [Removed]

 

[SkyWriting]

I attend a house church and I know all of the other members very well. There are no adulterers, alcoholics or divorces among us. It is not MY goal to have a purifying church--the Lord Jesus demands it. I well understand what a cult is and my house church has never had any of those aspects--you are mistaken. You "inform" me of nothing--it is you who are in danger. I doubt that you were ever a Christian.

Fortunately for me you are a sinner and thus not qualified to judge.
Have you checked that all your members have never had sex with more than one partner in their life?
More than one sex partner in the duration of your life, is an abomination to God.
Have any of those members even thought about another partner?

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So now are you sure you have a pure group with no thoughts of sins? I'm guessing you have failed miserably to purify your group and they are completely average. If they have had abortions, they certainly wouldn't tell someone who would kick them out of your group. When "opening up" to you....they are pure as sugar sprinkled on pie.

 

[Willie T]

Fortunately for me you are a sinner and thus not qualified to judge.
Have to checked that all you members have never had sex with more than one partner in their life?
More than one sex partner in the duration of your life, is an abomination to God.
Have any of those members even thought about another partner?

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I "liked" your post... not because I agree with your thinking, but because she deserved that kind of answer.

 

[amadeus]

Elton John age 71

Then the argument is that these men are
idolaters
adulterers
thieves
greedy
drunkards
verbal abusers
and or swindlers.

Killers of father or mother,
murderers
slave traders
liars and/or perjurers.

Is it that gays will be filling these groups?
Is the logical assumption that all these groups are likely to be gay?
What connection have you found?

My neighbor of 20 years is gay. I've never seen him touch anyone.
The police handcuff his neighbors...but not him.

So do the three men above fit these categories of crime because they are gay?
And when we find people in these categories of crime, can we assume they are gay?

I remember Elton John riding with me [I was a limousine driver] after a concert in Oakland, CA back in the 1970's. I was unaware of his sexual preferences at the time. He gave me no reason to dislike him although I could not abide his music. [I kept my mouth just about the music.]

Later I carried Jim Nabors [Gomer Pyle] as a passenger for a week to and from his appearances at Fishermen's Wharf in San Francisco at the time. I had heard about his supposed sexual preferences but I was unable to observe anything in him to turn me against him. During my time as his driver he signed my son's baby book for me. At the end of that week he gave me a stack of his LP Albums. I did like his music.

We have all been [or are?] all sinners, but do some sins make it more difficult or even impossible for us to treat people with this kind or preference or problem as Jesus would have treated them?

 

[Willie T]

I remember Elton John riding with me [I was a limousine driver] after a concert in Oakland, CA back in the 1990's. I was unaware of his sexual preferences at the time. He gave me no reason to dislike him although I could not abide his music. [I kept my mouth just about the music.]

Later I carried Jim Nabors [Gomer Pyle] as a passenger for a week to and from his appearances at Fishermen's Wharf in San Francisco at the time. I had heart about his supposed sexual preferences but I was unable to observe anything in him to turn me against him. During my time as his driver he signed my son's baby book for me. At the end of that week he gave me a stack of his LP Albums. I did like his music.

We have all been [or are?] all sinners, but do some sins make it more difficult or even impossible for us to treat people with this kind or preference or problem as Jesus would have treated them?

Excellent.. I do believe some of us think OUR particular church is a place where we may as well put up a sign: "No Sinners Allowed!"