How can Paul know who is saved and who is not--in advance? He and the Apostle John both say that the fact that certain members of congregations did not continue in the faith, proves that they weren't believers to begin with. (See 1 John 2:19 for an example, just off the top of my head)
Thanks for replying.
Two comments, no three:
1. If we're going to state that "they were never saved"...the conversation kind of ends right there.
2. You yourself have just stated that certain members of the congregation did not "continue in the faith" --- (as per John) ....
What does that mean to you?
Surely it means that one HAD FAITH...but did not CONTINUE in that faith...which is indeed what the bible teaches, and had taught for 1,500 years from the early Fathers.
3. John was very concerned with gnostics that had already invaded the church.
He was referring to these gnostics when he said that they were not OF THEM...the real Christians...gnosticism was not anything like real christianity.
1 John 2:19
What is Paul writing about in Romans 11? He is writing about the salvation of the nation of Israel and how God chopped their branches (note the plural reference) off His tree. He is, in essence, telling the Gentiles to avoid lording it over the Jews because God could chop their branches off as well. I believe "Replacement Theology" is offensive to God, for that reason. The largely Gentile Church has NOT replaced Israel.
Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about corporate salvation. Correct.
There are a few verses where Paul speaks personally as to what one must do to be saved...for example 10:9-11.
Romans 11:20-23 become personal.
Note verse 22 a NATION cannot continue if God's kindness...this must be done on an individual basis.
If persons fall, individually, severity....(how does an entire nation fall?)
If a persons CONTINUES IN HIS KINDESS,,,God's kindness.
This also proves again, BTW, that it's possible for one NOT TO CONTINUE in his faith.
If He lets them fall, they were never His.
You believe that GOD lets people fall?
Doesn't God desire that ALL be saved?
John 12:32
The N.T. is full of verses that speak about falling.
You're answer is that the persons were never saved?
But you said Paul couldn't know if they were saved or not.
What exactly ARE THEY FALLING FROM?
(if not their faith?) What else is there to fall from??
1 Timothy 4:1
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 3:12-19
Revelation 2:4-5
All of the above verses speak about falling away from faith.
Perhaps there are so many verses (which I did not post) because
it's of utmost importance in maintaining our salvation?
Remember who is being addressed here--"teachers of religious law" and Pharisees. One would hope that wouldn't include His current followers in the Church.
Matthew 23:13
WRONG VERSE.
Mathew 24:13 Jesus said:
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
And see what Mathew 24:10 says
"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another."
Again Jesus is speaking about holding on to the end
and that many will FALL AWAY.
Again. Fall away from WHAT?
Why shout "JESUS" at anyone? Do you really think that any of us ignore what He said? What He said is in total harmony with what the Apostles wrote--do you think that it isn't? Do you believe that anyone who truly belongs to Jesus would turn his/her back on someone who is hungry or thirsty or be inhospitable to strangers? The Body of Christ has been at the forefront of every movement to better the lot of mankind, down through the centuries. Unbelievers like to tout the "Enlightenment" but the improvement in the plight of man was begun by those who were truly in the Body of Christ, long before any so-called "Enlightenment".
Yes,,, I find that many pit Jesus against Paul.
A gospel of works vs a gospel of grace.
As if Jesus taught incorrect doctrine and Paul had to fix it.
And as to turning our backs on the hungry and poor....
YOU yourself said that we can only go by what we read about a poster...
some posters state very frankly that we ARE NOT REQUIRED to OBEY Jesus
and that WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY.
Jesus said if we're ashamed of Him,,,He will be ashamed of us before the Father.
I think we should say what we believe in our mind and heart and stop worrying about being spiritually "correct".
Luke 9:26
People's souls are at stake.