Please explain this.

[Lady Crosstalk]

Ok, my knees are already getting sore.

It's okay, Grailhunter. You can get off your knees--GodsGrace and I may work it out--or maybe not, but you don't need to ruin your orthopedic health about it. It is possible to disagree and yet remain friends. Thank you for your concern and prayers.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are so many nuances to our understanding of salvation and the Christian walk. Are any two of the twenty or more members who have commented on this thread in agreement on everything? Can any one of us say definitively that we completely understand what another understands and thus be in a position to criticise? This forum concept is so deficient, particularly for those who can't, or choose not to articulate themselves in a manner that anyone can say...aaah, now I know what you mean.
I struggle to know completely where you guys stand on certain topics. There are so many questions I could ask, affirm, clarify, that are impossible to present on a thread that in just a few days had stretched to nearly 50 pages. Clearly a topic we all care passionately about. And yet so little agreement between us. And this on a topic that involves all of the most fundamental aspects of the Christian life. Our relationship to God, His law, His authority, and our ultimate destiny. What hope have we if we can't get those right? And that's where grace comes in.
All the above being said, I do think we are confused over one particular aspect of the whole deal. We incorrectly I believe confuse justification with salvation. While justification through the sacrifice of Christ is essential, it is but the first step in a process, a process that we can opt out of at any time, or through distraction, disbelief, laziness, presumption, delusion,, and/or deception, be cut off from the Vine in much the same way as the natural branches were.
But hey, if we all disagree on certain points, not everyone can be right, right? And that includes me. Can anyone be "right"? Platforms such as forums lend themselves to misunderstanding and confusion. Yet they also lend themselves to greater appreciation for our humanness and frailty. Gotta love it. And each other.

1Co 8:1, Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2, And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3, But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

 

[Grailhunter]

It's okay, Grailhunter. You can get off your knees--GodsGrace and I may work it out--or maybe not, but you don't need to ruin your orthopedic health about it. It is possible to disagree and yet remain friends. Thank you for your concern and prayers.

Ha Ha

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But aren't you testifying of yourself, as you said I was doing, when I said I had met God, been given the Holy Spirit, and communed with Him?

Yet I had verses to back up my testimony and you insisted I was still only testifying of myself, despite the testimony of the word.

And now, you testify of yourself that you put Christ aside for the world and say you are not aware of any verses that clash with your testimony.

You could say you are a rooster and not a man, and you also would not find any verses that clash with that.

So...not understanding you...

But what I really want to ask is if you ever returned, after your rejection of God for the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

ha, well, any diff is pretty easy to detect, huh? Up,to a point tho, bc when i am genuinely interested in selling you something that you are already interested in, and if i am not a complete idiot, i will be attentive to any concerns, etc, and forthright about any drawbacks to any every choice, etc, blahblahblah, but the motive has changed from that of someone interested in finding truth.

Iow how susceptible am i as a buyer of "you might go up to heaven after you have died (as long as you are willing to dig a pit for others to fall into)." Bc that is the bargain, dont be deceived imo; he who seeks to save his soul will lose it cant get much plainer than that lol

What is the pit?
WHO is digging it?

 

[GodsGrace]

ha, so funny lol

Gotcha!


White man can't take the truth!

 

[GodsGrace]

They obviously weren't saved. I have seen many "Christians" who were baptized (which does NOT save anyone) and raised in the church who fell into sexual sin and drunkenness (drugs and alcohol). Doesn't mean that they can't ultimately be saved but they are not saved currently. I fear for them, should they die in their sins. Believing that they are saved is just wishful thinking.

No, but it is certainly implied (see verse 7:21) by the context of entering the Kingdom of Heaven--wouldn't you agree? If you recall, I was the one who said they are not saved--even though they protest His Final Judgment by citing their acts done "for Him". It is quite tragic that they believe they are saved.

Okay--why would I have a problem with that? Even the most devout Christian practices lawlessness all the time. I would wager that you are lawless as well--unless you practice the entire Law of Moses (which is actually impossible today without the sacrificial system being in place).

Okay--by that standard, all Christians would be condemned since we do not practice the Law of Moses.

Why would you think that I do otherwise? Because I disagree with you? How do you know that it is not your own preconceived ideas that are the problem?

Well, I guess that leaves you out since you cannot possibly fulfill the demands of the Law of Moses. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the entirety of the Law for everyone who truly believes in Him.

If only you had left out that last paragraph.

 

[GodsGrace]

If Double Predestination and Romans 9:20-24 is true, then “he who does not obey” was never able to “believe” in the Son, so as John 3:18 says ... he is already judged for his evil deeds.

Great point.
So if one is UNABLE to obey and/or believe in the Son...

HOW could a just God hold that person responsible for this lack of obedience/belief since the person WAS UNABLED to obey?

How does a Just God hold anyone responsible for what HE determined?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, like my own parents at one time thought. Brought up Catholic. Only God knows...

N,
Catholics do not teach that baptism ALONE saved anyone.
This would mean that ALL catholics are headed for heaven!
And this is not taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are so many nuances to our understanding of salvation and the Christian walk. Are any two of the twenty or more members who have commented on this thread in agreement on everything? Can any one of us say definitively that we completely understand what another understands and thus be in a position to criticise? This forum concept is so deficient, particularly for those who can't, or choose not to articulate themselves in a manner that anyone can say...aaah, now I know what you mean.
I struggle to know completely where you guys stand on certain topics. There are so many questions I could ask, affirm, clarify, that are impossible to present on a thread that in just a few days had stretched to nearly 50 pages. Clearly a topic we all care passionately about. And yet so little agreement between us. And this on a topic that involves all of the most fundamental aspects of the Christian life. Our relationship to God, His law, His authority, and our ultimate destiny. What hope have we if we can't get those right? And that's where grace comes in.
All the above being said, I do think we are confused over one particular aspect of the whole deal. We incorrectly I believe confuse justification with salvation. While justification through the sacrifice of Christ is essential, it is but the first step in a process, a process that we can opt out of at any time, or through distraction, disbelief, laziness, presumption, delusion,, and/or deception, be cut off from the Vine in much the same way as the natural branches were.
But hey, if we all disagree on certain points, not everyone can be right, right? And that includes me. Can anyone be "right"? Platforms such as forums lend themselves to misunderstanding and confusion. Yet they also lend themselves to greater appreciation for our humanness and frailty. Gotta love it. And each other.

Very good observations.
I'd say that Justification IS salvation.
One is saved at that point.
The rest that you're speaking of is sanctification and that
IS a journey that make on our way TO GOD while we live
on earth.
Galatians 6:8
Philippians 3:13-14

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry to tell you that you do not have doctrine under your belt.
.
.
.




What did you teach them if it wasn't the Bible?

What do you think bible study is?
How do you presume to know what I did if you don't ask?
I really don't want to discuss this further.
I've said many times that I've taught our faith to kids....
and their parents and others.
This does not make me a bible scholar who is the only person
that should be able to do a bible study...which is ongoing- week by week.

 

[GodsGrace]

How can Paul know who is saved and who is not--in advance? He and the Apostle John both say that the fact that certain members of congregations did not continue in the faith, proves that they weren't believers to begin with. (See 1 John 2:19 for an example, just off the top of my head)

Thanks for replying.
Two comments, no three:

1. If we're going to state that "they were never saved"...the conversation kind of ends right there.

2. You yourself have just stated that certain members of the congregation did not "continue in the faith" --- (as per John) ....
What does that mean to you?
Surely it means that one HAD FAITH...but did not CONTINUE in that faith...which is indeed what the bible teaches, and had taught for 1,500 years from the early Fathers.

3. John was very concerned with gnostics that had already invaded the church.
He was referring to these gnostics when he said that they were not OF THEM...the real Christians...gnosticism was not anything like real christianity.
1 John 2:19

What is Paul writing about in Romans 11? He is writing about the salvation of the nation of Israel and how God chopped their branches (note the plural reference) off His tree. He is, in essence, telling the Gentiles to avoid lording it over the Jews because God could chop their branches off as well. I believe "Replacement Theology" is offensive to God, for that reason. The largely Gentile Church has NOT replaced Israel.

Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about corporate salvation. Correct.
There are a few verses where Paul speaks personally as to what one must do to be saved...for example 10:9-11.

Romans 11:20-23 become personal.
Note verse 22 a NATION cannot continue if God's kindness...this must be done on an individual basis.

If persons fall, individually, severity....(how does an entire nation fall?)
If a persons CONTINUES IN HIS KINDESS,,,God's kindness.
This also proves again, BTW, that it's possible for one NOT TO CONTINUE in his faith.

If He lets them fall, they were never His.

You believe that GOD lets people fall?
Doesn't God desire that ALL be saved?
John 12:32

The N.T. is full of verses that speak about falling.
You're answer is that the persons were never saved?
But you said Paul couldn't know if they were saved or not.
What exactly ARE THEY FALLING FROM?
(if not their faith?) What else is there to fall from??
1 Timothy 4:1
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 3:12-19
Revelation 2:4-5

All of the above verses speak about falling away from faith.
Perhaps there are so many verses (which I did not post) because
it's of utmost importance in maintaining our salvation?

Remember who is being addressed here--"teachers of religious law" and Pharisees. One would hope that wouldn't include His current followers in the Church.

Matthew 23:13
WRONG VERSE.


Mathew 24:13 Jesus said:
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

And see what Mathew 24:10 says
"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another."

Again Jesus is speaking about holding on to the end
and that many will FALL AWAY.
Again. Fall away from WHAT?

Why shout "JESUS" at anyone? Do you really think that any of us ignore what He said? What He said is in total harmony with what the Apostles wrote--do you think that it isn't? Do you believe that anyone who truly belongs to Jesus would turn his/her back on someone who is hungry or thirsty or be inhospitable to strangers? The Body of Christ has been at the forefront of every movement to better the lot of mankind, down through the centuries. Unbelievers like to tout the "Enlightenment" but the improvement in the plight of man was begun by those who were truly in the Body of Christ, long before any so-called "Enlightenment".

Yes,,, I find that many pit Jesus against Paul.
A gospel of works vs a gospel of grace.

As if Jesus taught incorrect doctrine and Paul had to fix it.
And as to turning our backs on the hungry and poor....

YOU yourself said that we can only go by what we read about a poster...
some posters state very frankly that we ARE NOT REQUIRED to OBEY Jesus
and that WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY.

Jesus said if we're ashamed of Him,,,He will be ashamed of us before the Father.
I think we should say what we believe in our mind and heart and stop worrying about being spiritually "correct".
Luke 9:26

People's souls are at stake.

 

[bbyrd009]

But aren't you testifying of yourself, as you said I was doing, when I said I had met God, been given the Holy Spirit, and communed with Him?

um, when i say that Christ died for my sin? Strikes me more like a confession, admission, but i mean you decide? "I met God." "i killed Christ, He 'died' when i sinned."

Yet I had verses to back up my testimony and you insisted I was still only testifying of myself, despite the testimony of the word.

in a case like this i would seek crowd wisdom or some other possible fleece, i guess, but essentially are you elevating self or exposing it imo. Seeking a better standing or seat, or not, like that?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

um, when i say that Christ died for my sin? Strikes me more like a confession, admission, but i mean you decide? "I met God." "i killed Christ, He 'died' when i sinned."

No wait. Forget for a moment, what, in particular, we were talking about and look at this:

Blah, blah, blah, and these verses confirm and testify to it, and I'm not aware of any verses that oppose it.

Versus: Blah, blah, blah, and I'm not aware of any verses that oppose it.

 

[bbyrd009]

And now, you testify of yourself that you put Christ aside for the world and say you are not aware of any verses that clash with your testimony.

well, what is the difference is a confession and a testimony, i guess? Did Christ die for my sin or no?
Ok now did you actually meet God or no? What is your ref for that again?

 

[brakelite]

(how does an entire nation fall?)

Great question. And the answer is found in early Acts, when Stephen stood before the Sanhedrin and they blocked their ears and killed him. They represented Israel as a nation. They, as Israel's rulers, rejected their final opportunity to accept their nation's Messiah. They rejected Him. While there was an individual or personal aspect in this rejection, the greater import was their stand as official represemtatives of the nation, for that was Stephens law-suit against them...as were all the pleas of all the prophets before him. But there was a major difference in Stephens presentation...there was no call to repentance. Stephen was denouncing the nations rulers...and by association the nation itself...as being beyond redemption. He then rejected them...as a chosen people. The parable concerning the absentee landowner/king sending prophets, and finally his Son, who then destroyed those "miserable murderers". Yes, individual Jews/Israelites have always been able to accept Christ personally...and many have...but the nation is finished as God's representative people.

What exactly ARE THEY FALLING FROM?

Good point. Apostasy (the word) stems from the Greek word from which we get the concept of divorce. That falling away into apostasy means falling away from a former good relationship.

 

[bbyrd009]

You could say you are a rooster and not a man, and you also would not find any verses that clash with that.

ah, pretty sure i could?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

in a case like this i would seek crowd wisdom or some other possible fleece, i guess, but essentially are you elevating self or exposing it imo. Seeking a better standing or seat, or not, like that?

OR, are you giving testimony that God's word is true and you have found it to be true in your own experience?

 

[bbyrd009]

No wait. Forget for a moment, what, in particular, we were talking about and look at this:

Blah, blah, blah, and these verses confirm and testify to it, and I'm not aware of any verses that oppose it.

Versus: Blah, blah, blah, and I'm not aware of any verses that oppose it.

might be a good point, sure.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ah, pretty sure i could?

Really?? You can show me a verse that opposes the assertion? You can find a verse that says: Bbyrd is not a rooster.