Galatians 5

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GodsGrace

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Wherefore, if both the apostles and the teachers of the Church who succeeded them and imitated them did both these things—that is, both truly preached the grace of God which is not given according to our merits, and inculcated by wholesome precepts a pious obedience—what is it which these people of our time think themselves rightly bound by the invincible force of truth to say, “Even if what is said of the predestination of God’s benefits be true, yet it must not be preached to the people”?

1. Augustine is not an early church father...
that would be those to about 325 AD....

2. NO ONE else of the early church believed what Augustine believed.

3. Which part of Augustine's life is the above quote? The start of his Christianity, the middle of it, the end? You know, of course, that he changed his mind on many theories throughout his life-time.

4. For instance....He stated that if we stand, we stand with God...
If we fall,.,,,we fall alone.

IOW, if we stand, God is our help.
If we fall away from the faith...it's totally our responsibility.
Thus NOT confirming double predestination, as Calvin did.

5. This was also said by Augustine in the very document you posted above:
Chapter 12.—Of His Own Will a Man Forsakes God, So that He is Deservedly Forsaken of Him.

Which plainly means that if a man forsakes God,,
God will forsake that man.

6. You don't post sources, with link given.




It must absolutely be preached, so that he who has ears to hear, may hear. And who has them if he has not received them from Him who says, “I will give them a heart to know me, and ears to hear”? Assuredly, he who has not received may reject; while, yet, he who receives may take and drink, may drink and live. For as piety must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God may be rightly worshipped; modesty must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, no illicit act may be perpetrated by his fleshly nature; charity must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God and his neighbours may be loved—so also must be preached such a predestination of God’s benefits that he who has ears to hear may glory, not in himself, but in the Lord
A quote from “A Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance” by Saint Augustine of Hippo (early 5th Century)

Agreed. HE WHO HAS EARS TO HEAR....LET HIM HEAR.
I don't read here that God forces us to hear.


400 years before Saint Augustine, the Apostle Paul wrote the same message ...
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived [twins] by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

So what you're saying is that GOD HATED ESAU!
So Jesus was lying when He taught us that we are not to hate our brother?
And yet GOD HATES ESAU?
This is a very big biblical conflict.

There is another explanation....
And that is that God KNEW Esau would sell his birthright....so Jacob was the chosen one. Unfortunately, the word chosen is not understood by some.
God does NOT ARBITRARILY CHOOSE...it's always based on something.

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Indeed. It does not depend on the man who wills....
On that man that wants to work for his salvation..no matter how much that man runs....
But salvation will depend on God's mercy, and His mercy is known and how to receive it is known.
John 3:16

God does not hide salvation from His ultimate creation.


17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
It is commonly known and biblical that God DOES choose some men for special purposes...this however, is not common.
In Pharaoh's case, P already had a hard heart,
Exodus 8:32
And seeing how Pharaoh had a hard heart, God turned him over to his own desires, as in Romans 1:24

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles
The above is speaking about the Jews and the Gentiles...NOT about individual salvation.

This information could be readily found on the internet if anyone is interested in doing a study of Romans chapters 9 to 11.
A quote from “A Letter to the Saints in Rome” by the Apostle Paul.


3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

A quote from “A Letter to the Saints in Ephesus” by the Apostle Paul.

Please read you quote above.
It is NOT about WHO would be saved...
But HOW that salvation would come about.

We can go through your verses:
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

verse 4...God chose us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.
We would be saved IN CHRIST.
God chose us IN CHRIST so that we would be holy and blameless before GOD.

verse 5...God predestined us AS SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST..according to the kind intention of God's will.
AGAIN...HOW we would be saved..as Sons through Jesus...
NOT WHO would be saved.

verse 6...as is



1200 years after Saint Augustine, the Canons of Dort reaffirmed the same ancient truth ...
As the doctrine of divine election by the most wise counsel of God was declared by the prophets, by Christ himself, and by the apostles, and is clearly revealed in the Scriptures both of the Old and the New Testament, so it is still to be published in due time and place in the Church of God, for which it was peculiarly designed….”

From Article 14 of the 1st Point of the Canons of Dort, by the Synod of Dort.

I truly am not interested in the Canons of Dort.
And, again, I repeat, that no one endorsed Augustine...
He was ALONE in his twisted beliefs, depending, or course, in which part of his life he spoke.
 

justbyfaith

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You have not yet shown me one example from the Bible of a person who was justified BEFORE he obeyed God, that is, justified while he remained impenitently disobedient, rebellious to the will of God.

And this is not something that I am arguing against. For I believe that if someone is born again, their heart is regenerated and renewed so that they are no longer impenitenlty disobedient and/or rebellious.

No one is justified by works of the OT law of Moses as Romans 4:5 shows Abraham was not one justified by works of the OT law but instead was justified by an obedient belief.

If I'm not mistaken, Romans 4:2-3 is speaking of Abraham; but Romans 4:4-6 is speaking of anyone who worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly.

Also, Romans 4:5 definitely is not speaking of "the works of the law" per se, but of works period; otherwise the holy scripture in that verse would have specified the works of the law.

I have pointed out many times one is not justified by works required by the OT law of Moses but instead one is justified by obedient faith.

And again, no one is arguing that a saving faith isn't obedient by nature. What we are arguing is that the works themselves that come from that obedient faith are not salvational in themselves. Because salvation is "not of works". And this does not limit the works to being specific kinds of works. It is talking about works period. If you are doing works that are completely from the Holy Spirit, the scripture still stands...these works do not save you. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6.

Again, how could Abraham be one who "worketh not" per Romans 4:5 when we know for a fact he did do works per Hebrews 11:8; Hebrews 11:17?

Does the Bible contradict itself?

Abraham, in Genesis 15:6, was justified before God by his faith; before he "sacrificed Isaac" and not as the result of his leaving Ur of the Chaldees. Again, Romans 4:5 is not speaking of Abraham per se; but is speaking of anyone who worketh not but believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly. In Genesis 15:6, Abraham was justified by his faith apart from works; and this is the point that is being made: that works do not have any part in our being justified before the Lord.

Romans 4:2 would tell us that before man, works have everything to do with being justified. It is a principle, that man looks on the outward appearance; but God looks on the heart. Therefore Abraham has whereof to glory, before man, in that he left Ur of the Chaldees and (almost) offered up Isaac on the altar. But before the Lord his only glorying has to do with the fact that he believed in the Lord and it was counted to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:6). Before God, his only salvation is because of his faith in the Lord; and had nothing to do with his works before God.
 
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atpollard

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Yes. I knew you'd be happy.

I must be a tough cookie...
your pal over at Christforums BANNED me for speaking my mind.
This is a great testimony for Calvinism....
Some just can't even have a decent conversation.
Your banning was probably appropriate.
It would be appropriate to BAN me from a Jewish only Forum or an Atheists only Forum.
Christforum is clear about its purpose in the Terms of Service ...

"Note, we are a "fenced" community: Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible- believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church.

We are an orthodox Protestant community whose members espouse the Apostolic doctrines in the Biblical theologies set forth by Augustine, Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin and John Knox etc. We do not "argue" with nor do we solicit the membership of people who espouse secular or cultic ideologies. We believe that our conversations are to be faith building and posts that advance heretical or apostate thinking will be immediately deleted and the poster permanently banned from the forum. This is a Christian community for people to explore the traditional theologies of Classical Protestantism. Those who would challenge the peace and harmony that we enjoy here as fellow believers are directed to another website."​

If you do not agree with the Terms of Service then you should not participate there. I disagree with several Catholic doctrines, but I do not go to Catholic websites to argue with them why they are wrong. In addition to probably being a violation of THEIR rules, it would be an action in bad taste.

If Calvinists want grief from Arminians and Semi-Pelagians, we can come here and visit with you. We don't need you crapping all over the carpet in our private study. ;)
 

atpollard

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So what you're saying is that GOD HATED ESAU!
No, I just quoted SCRIPTURE. God is the one who said that He hated Esau ... TWICE, in fact, since Paul quoted from the Old Testament.
You spend a lot of time accusing me of believing Scripture ... guilty as charged!
 

justbyfaith

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One of the blessings of this forum, is that it is not easy to be banned or even infringe on the rules here.

I like it that the moderators are more lenient. It makes for an easier time of posting; for you do not have to worry about whether your post is going to be deleted because of some disagreement by the moderators.

It is free here; and this indicates to me that the Holy Spirit is present and having His way.

2Co 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

I believe and know that the Lord is not afraid of strange ideas. He is most certainly able to deal with them and to make those who have the truth approved before the general population.

1Co 11:19, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
 

atpollard

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And, again, I repeat, that no one endorsed Augustine...
Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Better check your Church History on that fact. The church rejected the Pelagian heresy and accepted the teachings of Augustine until the Middle Ages when it reversed its position and embraced the current Semi-Pelagian doctrine of works based salvation (including the sale of indulgences).
 

atpollard

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5. This was also said by Augustine in the very document you posted above:
Chapter 12.—Of His Own Will a Man Forsakes God, So that He is Deservedly Forsaken of Him.
Any statement plucked from its context is just a pretext.

The devil quoted snippets of truth to try and deceive Jesus. Your modus operendi is showing ... quote a part of something and twist it like a pretzel. Are you really claiming that Augustine was a Free Will Arminian just like you in the same document that I quoted TWO PARAGRAPHS from where he says that God predestines men? No. You are just throwing out half truths and deceptions.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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And this is not something that I am arguing against. For I believe that if someone is born again, their heart is regenerated and renewed so that they are no longer impenitenlty disobedient and/or rebellious.

But where is the example from the Bible of one person who was justified by God BEFORE that person obeyed God?


justbyfaith said:
If I'm not mistaken, Romans 4:2-3 is speaking of Abraham; but Romans 4:4-6 is speaking of anyone who worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly.

Also, Romans 4:5 definitely is not speaking of "the works of the law" per se, but of works period; otherwise the holy scripture in that verse would have specified the works of the law.

The context of Romans 4:5 includes Abraham and David too. No one, including David and Abraham would be justified by the OT law or Moses.

"Not of works" cannot exclude ALL works for, again, Abraham did do works per Hebrews 11:8,17 and James even says Abraham was justified by works. So to have "worketh not" exclude all works creates a logical contradiction.

Romans chapter 1, Paul proves the Gentiles have sinned.
Romans chapter 2 Paul proves the Jews have sinned.

Therefore Paul concludes that all (Jew and Gentile) are under sin. Those under sin are need of justification, so both groups, Jew and Gentile, need justification.

Romans chapter 3 Paul begins this chapter by telling us what does NOT justify (OT law of Moses that was given the Jwws) and near the end of the chapter he tells us what does justify (faith).

Paul begins chpt 3 by telling us the Jews had an advantage over the Gentiles in being given their own law. Even though there were many advantages having their own law, yet that law could not justify them. The OT law of Moses required flawless perfect law keeping to be justified and no Jew could do that, they would always sin. How do we know the Jews sinned? Romans 3:10-18 Paul quotes the OT law that proved the Jew sinned and those quotes were aimed directly at those under that law, the Jews Romans 3:19.

So Jew and Gentile are under sin, in need of justification and we find in Romans 3 the perfect flawless works required by the OT law of Moses could not justify either, but we find that faith (not faith only( justifies as Paul says in Romans 3:28..."Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Note the CONTRAST Paul makes between works of the OT law and faith. Paul is making a contrast between perfect works versus obedience.

So far in the first 3 chapters of Romans the only work Paul has eliminated from saving a man are the perfect works required by the OT law.

Romans chapter 4 Paul picks two men to make his point. Abraham (Gentile) and David (Jew) and from chapters 1 and 2 Gentile and Jew are under sin and need of justification, hence David and Abraham were sinners in need of justification. From chpt 3 we see the perfect works required by the OT law could not justify them (Abraham did not even live under that OT law of Moses, Romans 4:9-10.) So how was Abraham/Gentile and David/Jew justified?
By an obedient faith NOT by working to keep the law flawlessly.

So Romans 4:5 is just a re-hash of Romans 3 that show that perfect works of the OT law do not save but a belief saves. Abraham and David "worketh not" means they were not justified by perfect works required by the OT law but instead they believed, justified by an obedient faith.

Not one place in Romans chapters 1-4 did Paul ever exclude obedience but in fact included an obedient faith. The only work excluded in Romans chapt 1-4 are works of the OT law.

So when James says a man IS justified by works and Paul says one is not justified by works this is NOT a contradiction for they were not talking about the same kind of work. The work James speaks about that does justify is obedience and Paul is saying works of the OT law do not justify. Attempting to force Luther's faith only into the context creates major havoc and contradictions.


justbyfaith said:
And again, no one is arguing that a saving faith isn't obedient by nature. What we are arguing is that the works themselves that come from that obedient faith are not salvational in themselves. Because salvation is "not of works". And this does not limit the works to being specific kinds of works. It is talking about works period. If you are doing works that are completely from the Holy Spirit, the scripture still stands...these works do not save you. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6.

The Bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work. Since one must have faith BEOFRE he is saved implies he must have obedience before he is saved.

You have not proven that "not of works" excludes ALL types/kinds of work including obedience to the will of God. Eph 2:9, Rom 4:5, Titus 3:5 do not prove your point for not one of them excludes obedience to the will of God. But to try and make them exclude obedience would create a whole host of contradictions among Bible verses.


justbyfaith said:
Abraham, in Genesis 15:6, was justified before God by his faith; before he "sacrificed Isaac" and not as the result of his leaving Ur of the Chaldees. Again, Romans 4:5 is not speaking of Abraham per se; but is speaking of anyone who worketh not but believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly. In Genesis 15:6, Abraham was justified by his faith apart from works; and this is the point that is being made: that works do not have any part in our being justified before the Lord.

Romans 4:2 would tell us that before man, works have everything to do with being justified. It is a principle, that man looks on the outward appearance; but God looks on the heart. Therefore Abraham has whereof to glory, before man, in that he left Ur of the Chaldees and (almost) offered up Isaac on the altar. But before the Lord his only glorying has to do with the fact that he believed in the Lord and it was counted to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:6). Before God, his only salvation is because of his faith in the Lord; and had nothing to do with his works before God.

Genesis 15:6 does not say Abraham was justified by belief alone, such an idea is not even in the context. There is so much I plan on posting about Gen 15:6 but do not have the time right now to type in all in but will do so later today or tomorrow.
 
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GodsGrace

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Your banning was probably appropriate.
It would be appropriate to BAN me from a Jewish only Forum or an Atheists only Forum.
Christforum is clear about its purpose in the Terms of Service ...

"Note, we are a "fenced" community: Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible- believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church.

We are an orthodox Protestant community whose members espouse the Apostolic doctrines in the Biblical theologies set forth by Augustine, Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin and John Knox etc. We do not "argue" with nor do we solicit the membership of people who espouse secular or cultic ideologies. We believe that our conversations are to be faith building and posts that advance heretical or apostate thinking will be immediately deleted and the poster permanently banned from the forum. This is a Christian community for people to explore the traditional theologies of Classical Protestantism. Those who would challenge the peace and harmony that we enjoy here as fellow believers are directed to another website."​

If you do not agree with the Terms of Service then you should not participate there. I disagree with several Catholic doctrines, but I do not go to Catholic websites to argue with them why they are wrong. In addition to probably being a violation of THEIR rules, it would be an action in bad taste.

If Calvinists want grief from Arminians and Semi-Pelagians, we can come here and visit with you. We don't need you crapping all over the carpet in our private study. ;)
Very sweet of you.
As are most calvinists,,,you're very unmerciful,,,just like your god is.

BTW, I wrote to the owner there and stated my purpose and he said it would be OK to join.

Guess he thought I'd be a flimsy type girl....
BTW, how come there are no women posters in calvinist threads?

And you SHOULD be all by yourself with your very own little club and theology since it DOES NOT agree with the rest of Christianity,,,which is the correct theology..remember God is LOVE, MERCIFUL and JUST.

But not according to you.
 

GodsGrace

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No, I just quoted SCRIPTURE. God is the one who said that He hated Esau ... TWICE, in fact, since Paul quoted from the Old Testament.
You spend a lot of time accusing me of believing Scripture ... guilty as charged!
You believe, then, in conflicting scripture,,,
and in the N.T. there is no conflict.
 

GodsGrace

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Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Better check your Church History on that fact. The church rejected the Pelagian heresy and accepted the teachings of Augustine until the Middle Ages when it reversed its position and embraced the current Semi-Pelagian doctrine of works based salvation (including the sale of indulgences).
First of all the Early Church Fathers are those PRE 325 AD
Augustine and his ideas came about much time after that.

It's also interesting that Calvinists dislike Catholicism and yet take their own theology, SUPPOSEDLY, on what Augustine taught --- a Catholic!

Here is what the real Early Church Fathers thought about about FREE WILL and ETERNAL SECURITY:


Clement bishop of Rome 97/98 A.D. (justified all men) 1:13 "...being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever." First Clement 32.



Epistle of Barnabas 100 A.D. 1:139 (losing salvation) "Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord." 1:139 (chap. 4) "This means that the man perishes justly, who, having a knowledge of the way of righteousness, rushes off into the way of darkness. (chap. 5) (Presumably the way of righteousness is open to him).



Ignatius, disciple of John & bishop of Antioch 107 A.D. ~1:88 "Only you must pray for them, if by any means they may be brought back to repentance." Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 4.



Mathetes 130 A.D. 1:25 "Come, then after you have freed [or purified] yourself from all prejudices possessing your mind" 1:29 "having been a disciple of the Apostles..." To Diognetus 2, 10.

"as a Savior He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God." chapter 7



Polycarp, John’s disciple, bishop of Smyrna 100-150 A.D. 1:33 "But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness..." Philip. 2.



Shepherd of Hermas 160 A.D. 2:36 "...and reflecting on the commandments, that they are excellent, and powerful, and glorious, and able to save a man’s soul" Shepherd of Hermas 6:1.



Justin Martyr wrote 135-165 A.D. 1:177 "And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions..." 1:177 "The words cited above, David uttered 1500 years before Christ... But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain." 1:177 most of the page. The First Apology of Justin 43, 44.



Athenagoras 177 A.D. 2:142 "Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honour the good or punish the bad, unless and vice and virtue were in their own power" A Plea for Christians 24



Theophilus bishop of Antioch after Ignatius 168-181 A.D. 2:91 "And this is your condition, because of the blindness of your soul, and the hardness of your heart. But, if you will, you may be healed. Entrust yourself to the Physician [God], and He will couch the eyes of your soul and of your heart." To Autolycus 7.



Tatian (later turned heretic) 110-172 A.D. "brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice, in order that the bad man may be justly punished, having become depraved through his own fault, but the just man be deservedly praised for his virtuous deeds, since in the exercise of this free choice he refrained from transgressing the will of God." … "And the power of the Logos, having in itself a faculty to foresee future events, not as fated, but as taking place by the choice of free agents..." Address of Tatian to the Greeks ch.7 p.67-68.



Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp & bishop of Lyons (177-202 A.D.) 1:347 "they [unbelievers] despise the workmanship of God, speaking against their own salvation.", 1:455 "[God] did indeed show Himself to be long-suffering in the matter of the correction of man and the probation of all" 1:456 "indicating that eternal fire was not originally prepared for man, but for him [Satan] who beguiled man, and caused him to offend" Against HeresiesBook 1 ch.22.



Minucius Felix 210 A.D. 4:195 "determines also the fates for us according to the deserts and qualities of individuals." The Octavius of Minucius Felix 36.



"For God made man free, and with power over himself. ...That, then, which man brought upon himself through carelessness and disobedience, this God now vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. ... so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting." 2:105 To Autolycus 27



Clement of Alexandria 193-217 A.D. 2:319 "Now the devil, being possessed of freewill, was able both to repent and to steal;" 2:239 "So in no respect is God the author of evil. But since free choice and inclination originate sins" Stromata Book 1 ch.17. vol.2:239 "For to take fever is involuntary; but when one takes fever through his own fault, from excess, we blame him. Inasmuch, then as evil is involuntary, -for no one prefers evil as evil;...such being the case, to free ourselves from ignorance, and from evil and voluptuous choice, and above all, to withhold our assent from those delusive phantasies, depends on ourselves." The Instructor 2:1. 3:319 speaks well of the work Shepherd of Hermas. also last chapter.

"Everything then, which did not hinder a man’s choice from being free, He made and rendered auxiliary to virtue," Stromata 7:2

"And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all? But He is the Saviour of those who have believed, because of their wishing to know; and the Lord of those who have not believed, till, being enabled to confess him, they obtain the peculiar and appropriate boon which comes by Him." (Stromata 7:2)



Bardaisan of Syria 154-222 A.D. "But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures. fragments quoted from Forster & Marston



PART 1 OF 3
 
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GodsGrace

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PART TWO OF THREE

Hippolytus, disciple of Irenaeus and Bishop of Portus 220-236 A.D. 5:152 "[Jesus] might exhibit His own manhood as an aim for all men. And that by Himself in person He might prove that God made nothing evil, and that man possesses the capacity of self-determination, inasmuch as he is able to will and not to will, and is endued with the power to do both." Refutat. of All Heresies 10:29



Tertullian 200-240 A.D. 3:220 (against total depravity) "Still there is a portion of good in the soul, of that original, divine, and genuine good, which is its proper nature. For that which is derived from God is rather obscured than extinguished." 3:301 "Therefore it was proper that (he who is) the image and likeness of God should be formed with a free will and a mastery of himself; so that this very thing - namely, freedom of will and self-command - might be reckoned as the image and likeness of God in him." 3:303 No doubt it was an angel [Lucifer] who was the seducer; but then the victim of that seduction [Adam] was free, and master of himself;" 3:308 "Who is the author of good, but He who also requires it?" 3:308 "Behold, they [Marcionites] say, how He acknowledges Himself to be the creator of evil in the passage, ‘It is I who created evil.’ They take a word whose one form reduces to confusion and ambiguity two kinds of evils (because both sins and punishments are called evils), and will have Him in every passage to be understood as the creator of all evil things, in order that He may be designated the author of evil." Against Marcion chap. 14.



Commodianus North African bishop 240 A.D. 4:210 "If you wish to live, surrender yourselves to the second law. Avoid the worship of temples, the oracles of demons; turn yourselves to Christ, and ye shall be associates with God." Instruction of Commodianus 35.



Origen (strange teacher) 230-254 A.D. 4:240 "This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the Church, that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition;" De Principiis Preface 5.



Novatian (turned schismatic) 254-256 A.D. 5:646 "For in reprobating what He [God] has made, He will appear to have condemned His own works, which He had approved as good; and He will be designated as seeming capricious in both cases, as the heretics indeed would have it;" On the Jewish Meats 2.



Cyprian, bishop of Carthage and martyr 248-258 A.D. ~5:317 "watch against the snares of the devil, and, taking care for you own salvation, be diligently on your guard against this death-bearing fallacy." 5:357 "Keep discipline, lest haply the Lord be angry, and ye perish from the right way, when His anger shall quickly burn against you. And what shall Christ and our Lord and Judge think, when He sees His virgin, dedicated to Him, and destined for His holiness, lying with another?" 5:358 Nor let them think that the way of life or of salvation is still open to them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests.." Epistle 61.



Archelaus 277 A.D. 6:187 "none of these things can be attributed to the God and Father of our Lord and Saviour, but that we must take Satan to be the cause of all our ills." Disputat. with Manes 13



Theonas of Alexandria 300 A.D. ~6:159 "Therefore you ought to strive to the utmost of your power not to fall into a base or dishonourable, not to say an absolutely flagitious way of thinking..." Epistle to Licianus the Chief Chamberlain 2.



Second Clement 100-300 A.D. 7:522 -lose salvation. Chapter 17



Alexander of Lycopolis 301 A.D. 6:247 "But man, being able to perceive and to judge, and being potentially wise, -for he has the power to become so -when he has received what is peculiar to himself, treads it under foot." Of the Manichaeans chap. 15.



Arnobius 297-303 A.D. 6:458-459 "To all, He says, the fountain of life is open, and no one is hindered or kept back from drinking. If you are so fastidious as to spurn the kindly offered gift, ... why should He keep on inviting you, while His only duty is to make the enjoyment of His bounty depend upon your own free choice?" 6:458-459 "Nay, my opponent says, if God is powerful, merciful, willing to save us, let Him change our dispositions, and compel us to trust in His promises. This, then is violence, not kindness nor the bounty of the Supreme God, but a childish and vain strife in seeking to get the mastery. For what is so unjust as to force men who are reluctant and unwilling, to reverse their inclinations, to impress forcibly on their minds what they are unwilling to receive," Against the Heathen 2:64,65.



Methodius bishop of Olympus, Patara, and Tyre, martyr 260-312 A.D. 6:356-363 Wrote a whole work: Concerning Free Will.



Lactantius, disciple of Arnobius: 260-330 A.D. 7:272 "First of all, when evils befall them, men in their dejected state for the most part have recourse to God; they appease and entreat Him" A Treatise on the Anger of God chapter 16.



Venantius: 7:330 "Who seeing that the human race was plunged in the depth of misery, that Thou mightest rescue man, didst Thyself also become man." Poem on Easter.



Constitutions of the 12 Apostles 4th century 7:489 "...reconciled Thee to the world, and freed all men from the wrath to come" "... and deliver mankind from his deceit." Book 7.



Pre-Nicene Authors Who Were Silent on Calvinism



Alexander bishop of Alexandria (313-326), Alexander bishop of Cappadocia, then Jerusalem (233-250) (Origen’s follower), Anatolius bishop of Laodicea (270-280), Aristides, Asterius Urbanus, The Didache (147), Dionysius, disciple of Origen & bishop of Alexandria (200-265), Dionysius of Rome, Gregory Thaumaturgus disciple of Origen (240-265), Julius Africanus disciple of Origen’s assistant Heraclas (232-245), Peter bishop of Alexandria (310), Victorinus, Liturgy of James, Liturgy of the Blessed Apostles, Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs, Treatise Against Novatian, Treatise on Re-Baptism, and the Councils of Ancyra (314), Neocaesarea (315), Nicea (325). Fragments of Papias (70-155), Caius (180-217), Theognostus (265), Pierius (300), Phileas (307), and Pamphilus (309).



Conclusion



Perhaps we can all agree on Calvinist Loraine Boettner’s words: "It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. ... They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. ... They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a cooperation between grace and free will." The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination p.365.
 

GodsGrace

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AND HERE IS SOME INFO ON THE INFAMOUS AUGUSTINE...THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS NOT FOLLOWED: (because the biggest Christian church in the world has determined that Augustine was NOT correct in some of his temporary beliefs)

part 3 of 3
Calvinism: Absent Until Augustine
Introduction

Calvinistic teachings were a "new" doctrine, that nobody had taught in the church until Augustine around 400 A.D., and even Augustine was not a Calvinist. Newness does not automatically prove a doctrine false, but no New Testament Greek speaking Christians saw Calvinism in the Greek New Testament, Calvinists cannot lay claim to the argument that the Bible is full of Calvinism if the only people to see these in the New Testament Greek were people who did not speak New Testament Greek.

Some, but not all Calvinists maintain that one cannot have solid Christian doctrine without being a Calvinist. If this is true, then they must maintain that until Augustine we cannot find a single Christian for 300 years who had solid Christian doctrine. Even many Calvinists would not say that Augustine’s doctrine was solid, as he, among other things, promoted a "Roman Catholic" view of the church, torture of heretics, and all unbaptized babies suffering in hell.

A simple conclusion, that non-Calvinists and some Calvinists agree to also, is that being a Calvinist is not essential to having solid Christian teaching.

What Makes a Non-Calvinistic Teaching?

This paper considers a writer a confirmed non-Calvinist if he believes one or more points on this list.

1) Jesus suffered and died for all people

2) God expressly willed evil as well as good

3) The root of sin is our free-will, not God’s Sovereign will

4) Predestination is simply based on foreknowledge

5) People have free-will, or free-choice, to respond to God

6) Scripture gives high regard to our free choice as free agents

7) No one is responsible for what he has no ability to affect

8) Christ died for all equally, and God loves all equally

One can summarize most of the following writings with the words of J.N.D. Kelly Early Christian Doctrines p.349

"From this beatitude our first parents fell not (these [early Greek] writers all emphasize the point) through any necessity, and still less through any action of God’s but by the misuse of their own free will, and to that fatal lapse of theirs are to be attributed all the evils to which man is heir.

The reader should not jump to false conclusions.

1) Since the church leaders were not Calvinists, it does not follow they were five-point Arminians either. They taught a synergy between God’s sovereignty and man’s free-will.

2) These church leaders are not implied to be infallible.

3) They did not agree among themselves on every point.
 

GodsGrace

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Any statement plucked from its context is just a pretext.

The devil quoted snippets of truth to try and deceive Jesus. Your modus operendi is showing ... quote a part of something and twist it like a pretzel. Are you really claiming that Augustine was a Free Will Arminian just like you in the same document that I quoted TWO PARAGRAPHS from where he says that God predestines men? No. You are just throwing out half truths and deceptions.
You found the ONLY person that believed in predestination...
NOT DOUBLE PREDESTINATION.

What I posted is correct and I GAVE THE SOURCE.
Something YOU do not do.

Hang on to Augustine really tight A,,,because NO ONE ELSE in the early church agreed with him.
 

GodsGrace

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Any statement plucked from its context is just a pretext.

The devil quoted snippets of truth to try and deceive Jesus. Your modus operendi is showing ... quote a part of something and twist it like a pretzel. Are you really claiming that Augustine was a Free Will Arminian just like you in the same document that I quoted TWO PARAGRAPHS from where he says that God predestines men? No. You are just throwing out half truths and deceptions.
Why do you have so much hate in you?

Other Christians try to love one another.
You have no need to love anyone...
You're a VERY SPECIAL PERSON because God chose YOU to be saved.
It's sick.
 

justbyfaith

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"Not of works" cannot exclude ALL works for, again, Abraham did do works

Abraham is nowhere in the context of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Paul quotes the OT law that proved the Jew sinned and those quotes were aimed directly at those under that law, the Jews Romans 3:19.

Just a side point: the Jews are not the only ones who are under the law, it is all those who are not in Christ (who are not under grace), who are under the law.

Scripture:

Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


So when James says a man IS justified by works and Paul says one is not justified by works this is NOT a contradiction for they were not talking about the same kind of work. The work James speaks about that does justify is obedience and Paul is saying works of the OT law do not justify. Attempting to force Luther's faith only into the context creates major havoc and contradictions.

It is not a contradiction because, per Romans 4:2 and 1 Samuel 16:7, justification by works is before man; while justification before God is by faith alone, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7.

In Romans 4:5, the scripture plainly states that God justifies the ungodly man, who worketh not, because of his faith. Whatever arguments that you want to make from the context are not going to phase me from continuing to see this; because it is a solid rule of hermeneutics that the context never nullifies the plain meaning of any singular verse of scripture.

The Bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work. Since one must have faith BEOFRE he is saved implies he must have obedience before he is saved.

Indeed, it is written,

Jhn 6:28, Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29, Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


This is written for the sake of those who, after all is said and done in the argument of faith alone vs. faith + works for salvation, continue to insist, against all reason, that they will be saved by their works.

Here, Jesus says that the only work that will save you is a simple faith in Jesus Christ...which brings it back to the nitty-gritty, salvation through faith alone.

You have not proven that "not of works" excludes ALL types/kinds of work including obedience to the will of God. Eph 2:9, Rom 4:5, Titus 3:5 do not prove your point for not one of them excludes obedience to the will of God. But to try and make them exclude obedience would create a whole host of contradictions among Bible verses.

I believe that I have indeed, shown that "not of works" includes those works that we can do in the power of the Holy Ghost, that even these do not save a man. In fact, I believe that Matthew 7:22 shows that they will be excluded from the kingdom who place their trust in their works to save them (and the verse is even referring to works that would require the power of the Holy Spirit to be accomplished). If you want to take a chance on this and place your trust in your works, because you think they were done in the power of the Holy Spirit, then you are still putting your trust in your works to save you and I believe that you may get a similar response from the Lord on your day of judgment as did the people in the passage (Matthew 7:21-23).

And there is no contradiction between Bible verses in understanding that salvation is not of works period, if you will simply see that salvation is unto good works, rather than as the result of them. We do good works because we are saved...because we have been made into new creatures in Christ who are inclined unto doing good works. If anyone does not see this I would have to pray that the Lord removes the blinders from off of their eyes...for the following scripture is surely in play:

2Co 4:3, But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Genesis 15:6 does not say Abraham was justified by belief alone, such an idea is not even in the context. There is so much I plan on posting about Gen 15:6 but do not have the time right now to type in all in but will do so later today or tomorrow.

Gen 15:6, And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

And it is also a solid rule of hermeneutics that the context of a verse never nullifies the plain message of any singular verse of scripture.
 
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justbyfaith

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Concerning the eternal security debate.

I believe that the passages that tell us that we might lose our salvation are intended by the Lord to place His fear in our hearts in order that we may not depart from Him.

The promise of scripture is that His for ever fear in us means that we shall not depart from Him (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).

This coupled with the fact that no one can snatch us out of His hand produces in my sight an airtight case that we cannot lose our salvation, who have been given a heart faith that is unto righteousness.

No one can snatch us out of his hand...to which some say, "but you can walk away"...

But the first passage in question indicates that His fear in you means that you will not walk away.

So where does the fear come in?

It is important to give diligence to make our calling and election sure...by making sure that our faith is not mere mental assent...a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith.

A healthy fear of God preserves us from ever letting our faith deteriorate to that level...and as long as our faith does not deteriorate to that level, we are secure in Christ. There is no danger of falling away as long as our faith is of the heart and is producing righteousness within us (Romans 10:10).
 
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marks

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I believe that the passages that tell us that we might lose our salvation are intended by the Lord to place His fear in our hearts in order that we may not depart from Him.
Hi jbf,

I haven't found a passage that actually says we can lose our salvation. In fact, in examining some of the verses those who say otherwise use for support, I've found some of the strongest teaching of the permance of our rebirth.

I think the real security is in Jesus living in us, and that the best way to live that life is to recognize that we are uncondemned by our God Who indwells us.

Consider, how much sin can a Holy God tolerate? Answer is, none. All sin is "sent away", remitted. We are new creatures, holy and righteous, who cannot sin. And this life is God in me. Not in my flesh, in me. My unity with God is life.

So there is no condemnation, there cannot be, because sin is of the flesh, and we are spirit. When we impose law, sin is inflamed. When we realize our liberty, sin has no power. It's power is a lie, and that lie is perpetuated by the imposition of law, or legalist thinking, that our acceptance to God is determined by our works.

But I read your post, and I'm happy you see our safety in Him!

Much love!
 

atpollard

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Why do you have so much hate in you?
I love scripture and God.
I hate to see scripture misapplied and God made to serve at the pleasure of man.

Jesus did not draw ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION to Himself when He died on the cross. All of the people living in North America prior to the 15th Century had ZERO opportunity to hear the gospel and be drawn to Jesus. So either Jesus did not mean “all men without exception” or Jesus lied ... was not the sinless sacrifice (since he lied) ... and we are still dead in our sins waiting for a sinless savior.
  • But all I get in response to this obvious truth of scripture, is blanket accusations that I REDEFINE ALL and deny that “All means All”.
  • Hardly an honest appraisal of my position.

Of course it is perfectly reasonable when the ANTI-CALVINISTS claim ...
  • John 6:44 doesn’t really mean “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” nor does Jesus really promise that He “will raise him up on the last day”
  • John 10:11 doesn’t really mean the “the good shepherd lays down His life for [HIS] sheep”, instead this ‘good shepherd’ lays down his life for ‘His sheep’, ‘not His sheep’, ‘goats’, and even ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing”
  • John 10:26 doesn’t really mean “you do not believe because you are not of My sheep”, instead it really means “you are not My sheep because you do not believe“
  • John 10:28 doesn’t really mean “I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish”
  • John 10:29 doesn’t really mean that “has given them to Me”
  • Romans 3:10 doesn’t really mean “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE”
  • Romans 9:13 doesn’t really mean God “HATED” Esau
  • Romans 9:16 doesn’t really mean it depends “on God who has mercy”
  • Romans 9:18 doesn’t really mean God “has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”
  • Romans 9:22 doesn’t really mean God has “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”
  • Romans 9:23 doesn’t really mean we are “vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory“
  • Ephesians 1:4 doesn’t really mean God “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world”
  • Ephesians 1:5 doesn’t really mean God “predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will“
  • Ephesians 2:1 doesn’t really mean “you were dead in your trespasses and sins”
  • Ephesians 2:5 doesn’t really mean “even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive”
  • Ephesians 2:8 doesn’t really mean our salvation was “not of yourselves” nor was it “the gift of God”
All because the majority of Christians believe that man has free will, not completely corrupted by the fall of Adam, to choose God (or reject God) on the strength of HUMAN FREE WILL, so God is powerless to save without our permission and powerless to preserve us without our cooperation. All these scriptures and many more are just “misunderstood” by these radical Calvinists that dare to believe that John and Paul meant what they wrote (rather than the traditions of men).