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Featured Galatians 5

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Here is the reasoning through TULIP that makes me to believe in free will.

    If Irresistible Grace be the reality, then the reality is also either Limited Atonement or Universalism (the challenge of this post will be to show a third option).

    It is not Universalism since Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46 all teach us that there is a furnace of fire for everlasting punishment.

    It is not Limited Atonement since, God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4); and also, God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). And, according to 1 Timothy 2:6, Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all;

    But Irresistible Grace would seem to be the reality, because of such verses as 1 Corinthians 13:8 and Revelation 19:6. God is both Omnipotent, and His love never fails.

    So His love will not fail to bring those whom He has chosen into the kingdom, right?

    Nevertheless, the scriptures which show that it is not Limited Atonement also show that this would mean Universalism. Yet Universalism is not true because of the scriptures that I presented in refutation of that doctrine.

    So then, it seems that there is now an irreconcilable contradiction.

    I couldn't figure it out; because I was so intent on believing that God's love never failing and Him being Omnipotent meant Irresistible Grace.

    But there is another answer (my wife, with the faith of a child, came up with it): that God, in His Omnipotence, Sovereignty, and Love, chose to relinquish a degree of His own sovereignty in order to give a degree of sovereignty to the ones whom He would create. In other words, FREE WILL.

    In this, the Lord cannot fail to give to every man the thing that is chosen by him when all is said and done on his day of judgment. Whatever man chooses, the Lord in His Omnipotence will provide for man the choice that he has made.

    Is there a third option other than free will, that can even be the truth; taking 1 Corinthians 13:8 and Revelation 19:6 into account?

    I am interested if there is any other answer to this dilemma in Calvinism, that any Calvinist might come up with.

    Lay it on the table. How does the above information not translate into the doctrine of free will and the sovereignty of man?
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    If salvation and sanctification are based on the FREE WILL of man, then every promise of God granting “eternal life” needs to come with an asterisk. Your eternal destiny is NOT secure in the hands of the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit does not GUARANTEE any inheritance ... You are responsible to hold on tight because your salvation is in your hands.

    How does one die to their old self, be ‘born from above’ as a new creation ... and then be UNBORN ... and maybe REBORN again ... and maybe UNBORN yet again ... (if it is all about your free will and the faith you generate by your will).


    All men are born with the freedom to do whatever they want.
    Whoever believes in Jesus has (present, not future) eternal life (John 3:16-18)
    No one wants to believe, what men want is to hide from God (John 3:19-20)
    Those that do come to God, are drawn by the Father (John 6:44, John 10:29) and God provides the good works (Ephesians 2:10) and empowers men to want to do them and to be able to do them (Philippians 2:13) so that all our good works are wrought in God (John 3:21).
    God accomplishes this by removing a dead heart of stone (Ezekiel 36:26, Ephesians 2:1-3) and replacing it with a living heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:26, Ephesians 2:4-5)

    Where is the evidence that men have any innate desire to please God apart from the draw of God?
    We have complete free will to be any sort of sinner that we desire. We cannot choose to be Holy and to please God because that is not in our nature ... just as we cannot choose to flap our arms and fly because being a bird is not part of Human nature. We were not born with that ability, so that choice is not open to us. That is why Jesus had to have a Virgin birth, so he would have human form without Adam’s sinful nature.
     
  3. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    It's also just as true that those who no longer sin, no longer need a sacrifice to cover their sin. They are no longer under the penalty of the law. This is the condition of those who have entered into the new covenant as outlined in Jeremiah 31:31-33;Ezekiel 11:19:36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10

    Likewise, those who have come to an accurate knowledge of the truth, and continue to sin, can no longer rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin. Hebrews 10:26
     
  4. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    I was with you all the way to the last sentence. I agree that Christ didn't sin, but he wasn't omniscient like God either. Even his will was limited by God's will. As Paul points out he came in the likeness of sinful flesh, i.e. the likeness of sin's flesh.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that you have thought through the information that I have presented in post #261 (Galatians 5).

    God has given to every person the capacity for free will...

    Now granted, the inclinations of an unregenerated person are in a certain direction...as are the inclinations of a regenerated person in the opposite direction.

    The fear of the Lord keeps the regenerated person from crossing the line over into damnation if the inclination to obey and follow and believe in the Lord doesn't.

    If someone doesn't have the fear of the Lord, then their faith may be only lukewarm, nominal, or shallow...mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel.

    And if someone doesn't have the fear of the Lord, they may indeed cross the line over into unbelief and damnation...see Luke 8:13.

    Likewise, someone who does not know the Lord, when drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit...this is not regeneration. When drawn to Christ by the Holy Ghost, they have a choice to make...they are given the ability to make a choice that is not hindered by the fleshly or demonic...and also the Holy Spirit is wooing them so that it is not very likely that they would make a choice to reject Christ...but some do for whatever reason. Maybe the invitation is public and they are too ashamed to admit that they are a sinner in need of a Saviour. Maybe there is someone among their family or friends that would ostracize them if they made a commitment to Christ. In such situations, I believe that God is the God of second chances...if someone rejected salvation the first time for reasons like what I have mentioned, the Lord is merciful and may (I am not saying that He absolutely will) give them another chance to receive Him later.

    A person has his whole life to make a decision for Christ. Now of course, we know that time and chance happens to everything and we do not know what a day may bring forth (Proverbs 27:1, Ecclesiastes 9:11).

    Gen 6:3, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

    I find that in some circles of Calvinism, they teach that we cannot choose God, i.e. we cannot repent; because if God did not choose you then you can do nothing to enter into the kingdom...even if you desire to go to heaven the Lord has shut you out.

    Jesus, on the other hand, said the following:

    Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    This is contrary to the idea in Calvinism that we do not choose God but God chooses us...and that therefore if God did not choose us it is not possible that we should choose Him.

    The verse in question seems to me to be saying that, even if God did not choose me (a hypothetical situation), that I can choose God and He will receive me into His kingdom...He will in no wise cast me out.

    I will agree with Calvinism in this...that if God is not drawing a man to Christ, he cannot come to Him...but I would contend that Jesus said that if He were lifted up from the earth He would draw all men unto Himself.

    So then, everyone will have an opportunity within their lifetime to either receive or reject Christ...and I would say that it may be a limited door of opportunity. If they reject Him in those moments when God is helping them to make a decision...well, I have doubts as to whether the Lord will help them a second time, although He might. It is written,

    2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
    2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    That word succour means to help. God helps you to receive Him in the day of salvation.

    When is that day? The Bible says it is "now" whether you are reading this today or whether you are not reading this tomorrow...God is helping you to receive Christ in the ever-present now. Tomorrow at this time you will look at your watch and the time will be now. 24 days from now, you will be eating breakfast, and the time will be now. Whatever moment it is that you are hearing the gospel and considering Christ's claims, the time in that moment is now in that moment...and the Holy Spirit will be helping you to make a decision.

    But consider that the Lord may only draw people to His kingdom at specific moments in their lives, such as the
    now of when the gospel is being presented to you today. You may not be presented with the gospel message tomorrow, and in that moment, the time will not be now, for the now that God was speaking to you about was this present moment, in which you are being presented with the gospel message today.

    Jesus died for you on the Cross approximately 2,000 years ago; and He is risen from the dead. He died for your sins: He is risen to prove that the work of taking the penalty for your sins was accomplished on the Cross. You need only receive the gospel message today by asking Jesus Christ of Nazareth to come into your heart and be your Lord and Saviour.

    Two scriptures (and then I'll shut up):

    Rom 10:8, But what saith it <the righteousness which is by faith>? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Hos 14:2, Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

    PS this turned into an evangelistic message that is not only addressed to @atpollard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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  6. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    John tells us that IN Him (Jesus) is no sin. Very few people believe that. People take a theory of the truth and nod their heads...but as soon as reality rears it's head they deny it.
    Do you believe that when we enter into Him, who knew no sin, that we take on this same perfection that He fashioned in His own humanity? Or do you believe we can sin IN Christ? Does Jesus allow sin in Him?

    Or is Jesus somehow actually sinful now because He allows us to sin in Him? As in...In Him is sin...the sins of His body? Did Jesus allow sin in His body when He was on earth? Why would He do so now that He is glorified? Are we stronger than Christ?

    Does God love us in our sins or does He love the sin out of us?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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  7. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    Abraham was not justified by faith only in Genesis 15:6.

    (1)
    James says Abraham was not justified by faith only, James 2:21-24.

    (2)
    If Abraham was saved by faith only in Gen 15:6 that implies that prior to Gen 15:6 Abraham was a lost unforgiven reprobate. Yet nothing in the context suggest such. Abraham is said to be "of God" in Genesis 14:19. The words of Genesis 15:1 would not be said to a lost unforgiven reprobate.

    (3)
    The justification of Abraham was a process, not something that happened at one second in time by faith only. The process began in Gen 12 when Abraham left his house land and kindred. He was reckoned righteous in Gen 15:6 and again in Genesis 17 cf Romans 4:19-22 and a final justification in Genesis 22:12. Note, it was not until Gen 22 Abraham offered Isaac that God says "now I know". This was the final justification test for Abraham, the point James 2 makes reference to. God did not say "now I know" in Gen 15:6. Like Abraham, we today must go through a process with belief (John 8:24) repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16).

    (4)
    In Romans 4, Paul was proving Abraham was justified by faith, hence he references Gen 15:6 for it used the wording he needed, that being, Abram's belief was counted for righteousness.

    This does not imply Abraham's faith was not seen by God as righteous before Gen 15:6.

    In Romans 4:13 Paul says the promise to Abraham was through "the righteousness of faith". From Hebrews 11:8 we know Abraham had an obedient faith in Geneses 12. Therefore there is no valid reason as why God would not see Abraham's faith as righteous in Genesis 12. In Gen 15:6 the verb "believed" is perfect tense meaning Gen 15:6 can be translated..."Abraham kept on believing in the Lord". So Gen 15:6 is not the first time Abraham had faith, but Gen 15:6 is a continuation of a faith Abraham already possessed as far back as Gen 12. One cannot separate the obedience from Abraham's faith in Gen 15:6 for his faith already possessed obedience.

    (5)
    The Bible teaches belief must include obedience else the belief is dead, James 2. Therefore Abraham's belief in Gen 15:6 would be obedient in that he obeyed God in having relations with Sarah, even though they were past child bearing years, making Isaac's birth miraculous as Christ's.
    Had Abraham had "faith only" in Gen 15:6 and nothing more, then Isaac would have never been born and the promise made to Abraham left unfulfilled and Abraham's belief would have been dead being void of obedience.

    When God promised Abraham a son in Gen 15:6 and Abraham believed, Abraham was not required at that specific moment in time to act on that belief in having relations with Sarah. Abraham acted on his belief later with Sarah. So in hindsight we know Abraham's belief in Gen 15:6 included obedience for Sarah gave birth to Isaac.
     
  8. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    'Not of works' in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit one would do to earn salvation and if one could earn his salvation he would have something to boast about. Abraham did not do works of merit, did not keep the OT law perfectly to earn his justification.


    No one today is under the OT law of Moses for Christ took it out of the way nailing it to His cross making that OT law ineffective, inactive. We today are under Christ's NT law, a law of grace.

    Not one of the verses you cite above says justification is by 'faith alone' nor do any of them eliminate obedience to the will of God.

    I showed the context from the first 4 chapters of Romans and nowhere did Paul eliminate obedience to God from being saved. The only work he eliminated was perfect works required by the OT law. So when Abraham "worketh not" he did not work in keeping the OT laws perfect BUT instead had an obedient belief. Therefore logically "worketh not" only eliminates works of the OT law and NOT obedient works for Abraham DID have obedient works per Hebrews 11:8,17. When faith onlyists try and make "worketh not' exclude all works of all kinds they continue to create a logical contradiction they never are able to resolve.


    John 6:27-29 refutes faith onlyism.

    Verse 27 Jesus clearly, plainly says to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.
    No work - no everlasting life.
    (I noticed you did not cite verse 27)

    The WORK Jesus gives the people is the work of believing.

    Verse 28 What shall we do, that we...work the works of God?

    They asked Jesus what work THEY are to do. Jesus did NOT tell them do no works but in verse 29 Jesus gave them the work of believing to do.

    Verse 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Jesus told them YOU BELIEVE telling them to do this work of God. Belief is a work of God in the sense God is the source of the work and has given this work to man. It does NOT mean God believes for men. When one does the work of his employer it means the epmployer is the source of the work and gives that work to the employee to do.


    Matthew 7:21 another verse that refutes faith only. Jesus said those that DOeth the will of the Father are the ones the enter the kingdom. Again, Jesus makes obedience to God's will necessary to being saved/enter the kingdom. Those in the context were doing their own self-righteous works and not doing the will of the Father hence Jesus never knew them.


    Those who are ALREADY saved, already Christian are required to do good works, Ephesians 2:10 for the Christian will be lost of he has no god works. But it takes OBEDIENCE for one to become saved, become a Christian...obedience UNTO righteousness.


    Dealt with Genesis 15:6 in my last post.

    --Gen 15:6 does NOT say Abraham was justified by faith only. Such an idea contradict James 2:21-24.
    --No verse says Abraham, or anyone else, was justified BEFORE they obeyed God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  9. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    I'm not for sure if you meant this for me, but John 10:28 does not teach eternal security. Verse 27 goes with verse 28 and is one thought showing salvation is conditional. Many "pluck" verse 28 out of its context and force OSAS into it.
     
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  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    It's because even the 'tares' (Matt.13) have God's Salvation through His Son offered to them, if they will repent (recall 2 Peter 3:9).

    Our Lord Jesus knew...

    John 6:64
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him.
    KJV
     
  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, do a deeper study on the 'meaning' of where he was from.
     
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  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi justbyfaith, it turned into something amazing! Well said brother!

    Much love!
     
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  13. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    Very much so.

    It's simply impossible. It's a contradiction in terms.

    No. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh.

    For all practical intents and purposes, there is only Christ.

    God meets us where we're at in our sin, and condemns the sin in our flesh. This revelation from God convicts us, and God then provides us with the gift of repentance, which gives us the choice we never had before, to turn from the sin we now see so plainly, and "walk after the Spirit".
     
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  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Very profound thoughts.

    I will let the reader decide by reading the verse:

    Gen 15:6, And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Of course Abraham was justified before man by works (Romans 4:2).

    God was looking at Abraham perhaps from the perspective of predestination in Genesis 14:19 and from being outside of time (dwelling in eternity, Isaiah 57:15). He saw the faith that Abraham would have that justified him in Genesis 15:6. It should be clear that that was the moment that Abraham's faith was reckoned to him as righteousness. Before that his faith may have worked itself out in some practical righteousness; but it was definitely recognized by God first in Genesis 15:6.

    Now in Hebrews 12:22-24 we find that among those who will judge (the Elohim) are "the spirits of just men made perfect."

    Those who have been included into the body of Christ are of these; and therefore, because they judge based on the outward appearance (i.e. as the twenty-four elders), these Elohim would say as God, "now I know".

    But I would ask, when did the faith in Abraham first exist, that led him to offer Isaac his son upon the altar? Was this not in Genesis 15:6? God said to him, "your descendants shall be as the sand by the seashore" and later, "in Isaac shall your seed be called". The fact that Abraham believed the LORD in this was demonstrated by the fact that he offered Isaac. Scripture teaches that he believed that God was even able to raise him from the dead. Thus Abraham's work of offering Isaac demonstrated the faith (alone) by which he was saved. If Abraham had not offered up his son, it would have been evidence that he didn't believe God's promise of giving him a multitude for descendants.

    As it was, Abraham's action demonstrated not only that he believed in the LORD; but it demonstrated the content of his belief in God. His actions were in accordance with what he believed. And this is all that James is saying. If you really believe something, then your actions will reflect what you believe.

    Abraham's faith was seen as righteous by God in Genesis 15:6...scripture says that that was the moment that God reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness.

    Alright, I'll give you that. I also am not arguing against the idea that living and saving faith is an obedient faith. I would argue, however, against the idea that the works are produced by such a faith are salvational.

    There was no faith involved in Abraham having relations with his wife. That is something that simply happens within the context of a marriage.

    The obedience that proved Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6 was that it was demonstrated in Abraham's offering his son Isaac on the altar.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    This only proves my point...that you do not earn your salvation by any works that you accomplish.

    Not even works that are done in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    In other words, you are not saved by them.

    Those who are not in Christ (those who are not under grace) are clearly under the law of the OT and the NT per Galatians 3:23-24 and Romans 6:14. Those who are in Christ are not "under" NT law...except in that it is written on our hearts and in our minds. But it no longer has the power to condemn us from the outside (although it does govern us from the inside)...we are not required to obey some New Testament law except that it is also a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, before we enter into faith...now we obey the New Testament law, not because it is a requirement, but because the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts. Jesus cleans the inside of the cup and platter so that the outside may be clean also.

    Maybe not in those words...but the principle is there in every one of those passages. The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible. Does that mean that the concept of the Trinity is not in it?

    Obedience to the Lord is a part of being saved...it is the result of being saved. It does not have the power to save.

    Galatians 2:16, while it appears to be speaking of the works of the law, is also speaking of works period. The law only sheds light on whether the works are acceptable to God or not according to His righteous standard.

    Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    If anyone thinks that they are going to be justified by their works, they are under the law and the following scriptures apply:

    Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


    In other words, if you think that you are going to be justified by your works, you are required to keep the law perfectly from conception into eternity.

    Since no one can do that (see Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13), God has provided a way for His Son's perfect life to be applied to your account, through faith in Him and what He did for you on the Cross. You can receive this faith today and your life will change. Or, you can continue to trust in your works to save you, and you will continue to be in bondage to the law (i.e. your life will not change).

    Also, if you will receive this faith today you will be forgiven of all your sin(s). Striving to earn acceptance before God by what you do will never earn forgiveness of sins. It must be received; for the Lord offers it to you as a free gift (Romans 5:15-19).

    My bad...but I would ask you...what is the work that must be done? Is it not simply to believe on Jesus? Therefore, nothing else is required...faith alone.

    This is simply not true. If we must belabour Romans 4:5 then we will. God justifies the ungodly person through faith, although the one who is justified worketh not.

    Again I say to you, that it is a solid rule of hermeneutics that the context of a scripture will never nullify the plain message of any singular verse.

    Most assuredly, to be a recipient of the promise that "they shall never perish", we must be Jesus' sheep, and He must know us, and we must follow Him. But if these conditions are met, then I would say that the statement that "they shall never perish" is pretty straightforward and indicates eternal security for those who are truly Jesus' sheep.

    PS some of this post turned out to be a general evangelistic message and may not be addressed only to @Ernest T. Bass .
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  16. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    And all readers will see Gen 15:6 says Abraham "believed" and not Abraham "believed only".

    James says nothing at all about Abraham being justified before man. That is a spin faith onlyists put on James 2 to get around the simple words...."a man is NOT justified by faith only".

    Abraham's justification came from God and before God, Genesis 22:1-12

    Why send Abraham into the wilderness to offer Isaac and not before an large crowd of people if he was to justified before man?


    --If Abraham were saved by belief only in Genesis 15:6 that implies he was lost prior to Gen 15:6 and there is no evidence of that at all.
    --Gen 15:6 was not the first time Abraham had faith, but the perfect verb 'believed' shows in Gen 15:6 that Abraham 'kept on believing God' therefore he had faith prior to Gen 15:6.
    --Paul writes about "righteousness of faith" in more than one place. From Hebrews 11:8 we know that in Gen 12 that Abraham had a righteous (right doing) faith. You gave no valid reason that his faith was not recognized as righteous by God in Gen 12. Again, the perfect tense of "believed" in Gen 15:6 shows the belief Abraham had in Gen 15:6 was a continuation of an obedient belief he already had from Gen 12.


    We know that Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 per Hebrews 11:8 and the belief he had in Gen 15:6 was a continuation of a belief Abraham already had as the perfect tense of "believed" shows.

    Secondly, Abraham being reckoned righteous was a PROCESS not something that happened in a second in time when he had faith only for he never had faith only. IN Gen 15 Abraham was about 85 years old when he faith was reckoned as righteous. In Romans 4:22 his faith was reckoned as righteous again but this time when he was about 100 years old, Romans 4:19 which refers to Gen 17. Then not until Gen esis22:12 when Abraham offers Isaac does God say "now I know". This does not mean God did not know before, but is accommodative language to help Abraham understand that offering Isaac was the final test that he past. God did not "know" in Gen 12 nor in Gen 15 but not until Gen 22. Clearly Abraham being reckoned righteous was a process and not something that happened in second in time.

    And that process began in Gen 12. Had Abraham not had an obedient faith in Gen 12 then Gen 15:6 would not have ever happened. Why did God even choose Abraham to begin with? Because God foreknew he would have "faith only"? No.
    Genesis 18:19 " For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

    The Lord knew He would be able to bring about those promises He made to Abraham for the Lord foreknew Abraham would be obedient and he would command his children and household to obey the Lord. Abraham and his household and descendants were not perfectly obedient but obedient enough God foreknew He could accomplish His will with them. God could have never accomplished His will with Abraham and his children had Abraham just had "faith only". Gen 12 would not have ever happen had he had faith only much less Gen 15:6.


    Abraham's faith would have been seen as righteous by God in Gen 12, Gen 15, Gen 17 and Gen 22. Again if Abraham was not 'right doing' in Gen 12 then Gen 15 would have never happened.


    There most certainly was faith involved in Abraham having relations with Sarah. Both were past child bearing years. Sarah laughed at the idea of having a child. Genesis 17:17; Genesis 18:12. Yet Abraham had faith God could accomplish His promise and that is why Issacs' birth was miraculous.

    Again, if all Abraham had was "faith only" in Gen 15:6 then he would have never had relations with Sarah and Isaac would have never been born. The fact Isaac was born is proof of Abraham's obedient faith of Gen 15:6, his faith God could miraculously give him a son though they were both old..
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  17. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    Obedience to God does not earn salvation but a necessary condition God has put on His free gift of salvation.

    1) doing a work to earn something
    2) meeting the condition placed upon a free gift

    There is a world of difference between #1 and #2 above and faith onlyist will not acknowledge that difference for if they did they wouls have to make radical, 180 degree changes to their theologies, beliefs.


    No one is under the OT law whether a Christian or not. Keeping the OT law cannot save a non-Christian but keeping the NT gospel of Christ can save.
    Gal 3:23-24 shows that BEFORE there was a NT law men were shut up under the OT law. But when Christ came to earth and died, He did away with the OT law and gave man His NT law to keep. Hebrews 10:9.

    Using the word "Trinity" does not change any Bible teaching. Yet by ADDING the word "only" behind the word "faith" does change God's word. There is a night and day difference between "faith" that does justifies (Romans 5:1) and "faith only that foes not justify,( James 2:24). That difference is that a NT faith INCLUDES obedience while 'faith only' is void of obedience.

    As a matter of fact the Bible says many different things save...

    faith saves Rom 5:1
    grace saves Eph 2:8
    hope saves Romans 8:24
    repentance saves Luke 13:3
    confession saves Romans 10:9-10
    baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21

    ….are some things the Bible says saves. So how can anyone ever declare "faith only" saves? It takes a combination of many things for one to be saved, not just faith only.

    The Bible says the opposite, Paul said 'obedience UNTO salvation" and not obedience because one is already saved.

    You have yet to show an example of one justified BEFORE he obeyed God. Abraham cannot be an example for he obeyed in Gen 12 before Gen 15 and James clearly says he was NOT justified by faith only.


    Galatians 2:16 is contrasting works of the OT law against faith in Christ, Paul is contrasting the OT law from the NT gospel. There were some Christians in Galatia that allowed Judiazing teachers lead them away from the NT law back to the OT law. Paul's point to them was the the OT lw with its required perfect law keeping cannot save you. Paul condemned them for having "quit obeying" the truth Galatians 3:2 that is, they quit following the NT law and went back to follow the OT law. ANd for doing so they had fallen from grace, that is, that had fallen from a system of salvation by grace (the NT law) and went back to the OT law where salvation was by perfect law keeping

    A common problem in the first century church is many Jewish converts would leave the NT and return back to the OT or try to force the OT law upon Gentile converts Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2. Paul's point to those Galatians that left the NT for the OT was they would have to keep the WHOLE law perfectly to be justified where as the NT law requires a simple obedient faith.,

    [quote-justbyfaith]
    Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    [/quote]

    One can be perfect can be without spot and wrinkle Ephesians 5:26 by being IN CHRIST. But it takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be I Christ and clothed in Christ, Galatians 3:27.

    This is a typical straw man faith onlyists offer up. NO WHERE have I ever said I can be justified by MY works. I have said I can be justifed by doing GOd's works/commands/laws. Evidently faith onlyist do not want to recognize the difference between one doing his OWN works and one doing GOD'S commands.

    What Christ did on the cross He did for every man, Hebrews 2:9 yet every man will not be saved for every man will not obey Christ, Hebrews 5:9.

    Hence those that CONDITONALLY obey Christ are the ones that take advantage of what Christ did on the cross. Those that do not obey do not take advantage of what Christ did for them.


    Jesus Himself said to strive to enter the strait gate Luke 13:24. One cannot enter heaven without striving to get there. What does one strive to do? His OWN works? No, but strives to keep GOD'S will and conditionally repents for those time he does not.


    Jesus never said believe only to be saved. Jesus made repentance, confession and baptism (Luke 13:3; Matthew 20:32-33 and Mark 16:16 just as necessary as belief. A NT belief therefore includes repentance confession and baptism else it is dead.

    Unfortunately some people want to cherry pick out verses that mention 'believing' while ignoring verse that require repentance, confession and baptism.

    Abraham did do works Hebrews 11:8,17 that is an undeniable fact. Therefore "worketh not" of Romans 4:5 cannot exclude Abraham from ALL works of ALL types without creating a logical contradiction.


    If John 10:28 is all we have to go by then you could never tell me who the pronoun "they" refers to. So we must have the whole thought of both verses 27 AND 28.

    Verse 27 tells us who "they" of verse 28 are that shall never perish. And "they" according to verse 27 are Christ's sheep. But who are Christ's sheep according to verse 27? The ones that CONDITIONALLY - CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Him so that is a qualifying statement. So to be of the "they" of verse 28 one must a sheep of Christ which means one must CONDITNALLY - CONDITNALLY hear and follow Christ. Both verbs "hear" and 'follow' are in the present tense denoting an ongoing sustained action. Therefore if one quits hearing and following he is DIS-qualified from being a sheep of Christ and therefore will no longer be among the 'they' of verse 28.

    And yes, men can quit hearing and following Christ by using the same volition they used to start hearing and following Christ.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the scripture that reveals that aspect of God's truth is Romans 4:2 and 1 Samuel 16:7.

    The story was destined to be related in holy scripture, so that eventually the whole world would learn of the story.

    It was Abraham's faith in believing God's statement, that "his seed would be as the sand on the seashore and as the stars in heaven", that the Lord reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. That is clear from the passage.

    Your point in this is what? It seems to me that Abraham was still justified by his faith; whether it continued on from before or whether it began in that moment. And it is also true that in that moment of faith (believing God's promise of descendants) there were no works attached; except for many years later when Abraham offered Isaac on the altar. It just goes to show that Abraham's faith was bare and naked (without works) at the time that it was conceived. I would say also that Abraham's faith to leave Ur of the Chaldees is distinct from the faith that he had to believe God for His promise of descendants.

    I've conceded this point. But I will say this: that the scripture specifically declares that the faith that Abraham had in Genesis 15:6 (and not the faith that he had before in Genesis 12) is reckoned to him as righteousness.

    I beg to differ. It happened as the specific result of Abraham's believing God's promise that "his seed would be as the sand on the seashore; and as the stars in the sky innumerable". Therefore it happened at the moment of the conception of that faith in Abraham.

    What, specifically, did God know in Genesis 22? Not "that Abraham was righteous"; but that "he feared the LORD."

    There is a difference between these things, since righteousness is by faith and the fear of the Lord is something that might be posited in the heart because of faith.

    This was only because of Abraham's faith. Let me be clear on something: living faith produces righteousness. When a man is "declared righteous" by the Lord because of his faith, know that it is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18) and that therefore God is calling those things which be not as though they were (Romans 4:17). Therefore in declaring a man righteous, the Lord makes him righteous (Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6, 1 John 3:7).

    Therefore the fact that Abraham was justified by faith alone does not mean that there was no righteousness involved in that faith...righteousness is the sure result of a living faith...and I would not define it as works either...it is the state of a man's heart.

    It was indeed faith alone that saved Abraham...and this faith produced righteousness, as I said before. It is not the righteousness that even saves; but it is the faith that produces righteousness. Of course, if the righteousness were not there, it would be a sign that the faith in question isn't living and saving faith. I would say that the righteousness is the salvation that is produced by faith, as a matter of fact.

    But specifically, it is mentioned in scripture that his faith is specifically mentioned as being accounted to Abraham for righteousness in Genesis 15:6.

    I disagree.

    That's ridiculous. They were married.

    continued in post #280 (Galatians 5)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  19. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    You should stick to discussing scripture instead of discussing what I or anyone things about calvinism.

    How can you be so sure (again) that it's not you that is misapplying scripture?
    I present verses to you and exegete them and you don't reply to them.
    Try doing that instead.
    Show me how I'm wrong.

    And how about posting scripture?
    Not everybody reading along has the bible memorized.

    John 12:32
    32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”


    Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Himself.
    All men. NOT categories of men.
    God has been drawing men to Himself from the beginning of time,,,
    but not all men accept God.
    The CHOICE is up to us...
    God offers,
    We accept or deny.
    2 Timothy 2:11-13

    Also, see 2 Peter 3:9
    Also, see 1 Timothy 2:4

    How do YOU explain those verses?


    Great. Then explain my verses without telling me that ALL MEN
    does not mean ALL MEN.


    I've replied to the above...you never answered me.
    This was my reply to you:

    John 6:44 states that no man could come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.
    John 14:6 states that no man could come to the Father unless through Jesus.

    I asked you which one was right?
    Does the bible contradict itself?
    NO.
    So there must bed some other explanation.
    Have you thought of this?

    Huh?
    The good shepherd, Jesus, lays down His life for His sheep...those who are His disciples and follow Him.
    This is correct.


    What's the difference?
    If one does not believe...he is not a sheep of the shepherd.
    If one is not a sheep of the shepherd...he does not believe.

    I don't understand the difference...it works out the same.


    This is correct.
    I (Jesus) GIVE ETERNAL LIFE to THEM (believers).
    As long as one believes, he has eternal life.
    The life is in the vine (Jesus)
    we are the branches..as long as we are attached to the vine..we have eternal life.
    IF we become DETACHED, we no longer will have life but the wrath of God will be with us.

    Jesus said so. It can't be any clearer than this.

    John 15:5-6
    5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


    [/QUOTE]
    God Father, from the beginning of time, had predestined us to be saved through Jesus,,,the Son.
    I have no further comment on this since the exact wording is not established.

    This is true.
    We are born UNSAVED...and must BECOME saved.
    AFTER salvation .... those are righteous in God's eyes.

    I've replied to the above and even posted links since it's a rather complicated subject matter and requires theologians to sort it out.
    If you don't want to believe those who know and wish to believe those of your particular church which are THE ONLY ONES who disagree,,,that is your prerogative.

    Romand 9 to 11 does not deal with individual salvation but with the nation of Israel.

    All of the above is true. I have no problem with this.

    It's not that God is POWERLESS...
    It's that He will not trample on our free will.
    You believe God loves puppets...
    I believe He's TOO INTELLIGENT to want a puppet for a companion...
    I believe He desires OUR FREE LOVE...

    The god you love doesn't seem to be as Almightly as you make him out to be
    if He has to depend on puppets for love.

    As to the traditions of men...
    YOU are following the traditions of men that were born ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED YEARS after Jesus died.
     
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  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    If I said, "I'm giving you a car tomorrow...a free gift...but I'm placing a condition on it...you need to work for me for the next twenty years without pay"...you would say, "bogus...that gift isn't free."

    Likewise, if there is a condition placed on receiving a gift (other than receiving it)...it isn't free.

    I beg to differ...those who have not yet come to faith are under the OT (and NT) law...per Galatians 3:23-24:

    Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


    This is from the perspective of one who has come to faith...saying that everyone, before faith came, were kept under the law.

    Therefore: if anyone does not have faith, they are still under the law.

    It shows that before faith came men were shut up under the OT and NT law. Now that faith is come, we are no longer under any law...except in that it is written on our hearts and in our minds. The law (whether OT or NT) no longer condemns us from the outside; although it governs us from the inside. We are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s)...Romans 4:8, Romans 8:38-39, Hebrews 9:12. Therefore our relationship to the law is that it no longer condemns us...because we are not under the law as forgiven saints...however, this does not apply to the unbeliever, whether he be Jew or Gentile. Jews and Gentiles who are not in Christ are still under the law (both OT and NT) is what I am saying.

    Romans 4:6 is clear that God imputeth righteousness without (apart from) works. So the addition of the word "only", saying that we are saved by "faith alone" indicates that works are not a part of the equation of what saves us.

    I don't believe that. You can avoid a lot of trouble by proclaiming that is is a living faith alone that saves.

    It has been said that "we are saved by faith alone...but faith that saves is never alone."

    In other words, living and saving faith produces works...however, clearly, Ephesians 2:9 and context, along with a few other passages, will tell you that those works do not save. It does not say, "except for those works that are done in the power of the Holy Spirit."

    No, he didn't. Chapter and verse, please.

    Romans 4:5 shows us a generic example of one who is justified as an ungodly person because of his faith...and in the verse the person who is justified "worketh not".

    Get your bicycle...we are about to run in circles.

    In Galatians 3:1-7, it says nothing about "NT law"...unless you are referring to the "law (or principle) of faith" in Romans 3:27. It, in fact, is referring to the difference between walking by faith and seeking to be justified by the works of the law...and law obviously refers to OT and NT law...because law is law (see also Galatians 2:16). The obedience of faith is a heart issue...it has to do with living according to the love that the Lord has placed in your heart because of faith (see Galatians 3:14 and Romans 5:5). This love is not produced by anything that we do...rather, it is produced by a living faith in Jesus Christ, by which we receive the Holy Ghost...whereby the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts.

    You lost me right there. Law and grace are mutually exclusive.

    If that is how you define NT law, then fine...I was assuming that your definition of the NT law was the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49)...which includes the OT law, btw...Matthew 5:17-20.

    Galatians 3:22 and Galatians 6:13 might tell you differently.

    continued in post #281(Galatians 5)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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