Biblical Foreknowledge

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John Caldwell

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As I was getting at - given the text of Scripture what are the reasons for either interpretation of foreknowledge? Is it our theological lens (eisegesis) or the text itself?
 

Enoch111

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As I was getting at - given the text of Scripture what are the reasons for either interpretation of foreknowledge? Is it our theological lens (eisegesis) or the text itself?
All the passages which speak of foreknowledge, election, and predestination are related to the future perfection and glorification of the saints. This should have been honestly exegeted by all, but was perverted by Reformed Theolgoy.

EPHESIANS 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him [election] before the foundation of the world [divine foreknowledge], that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:[perfection]

5 Having predestinated [predestination] us unto the adoption (huiothesia)* of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

What does "the adoption of children" mean in this context?

*Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5206: υἱοθεσία

...it also includes the blessed state looked for in the future life after the visible return of Christ from heaven; hence,ἀπεκδέχεσθαι υἱοθεσίαν, to wait for adoption, i. e. the consummate condition of the sons of God, which will render it evident that they are the sons of God,Romans 8:23, cf. Romans 8:19.

What is "the consummate condition of the sons of God" other than their perfection and glorification (1 John 3:1-3)?
 
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GodsGrace

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It is interesting that Calvinism was foreign to Ignatius and Polycarp as far as we can tell). But to be fair, the questions Calvinism addresses were not even being asked during Calvin's lifetime.
I think Augustine brought the question up.
The church couldn't accept his ideas.

The ECFs learned from the Apostles...
why would they make such an important concept of Christianity the fact that we had to go into all the world and teach what Jesus taught and baptize -- Matthew 28:19...

Why would the writers of the N.T. and the ECFs make such an important concept that in Christianity we had to behave a certain way?

If God predestined all...wouldn't HIS will be done apart from anything WE did (which we were told to do?)

The above just makes calvinism unfeasible to me.

I DO believe that God CHOSE some for special purposes.
Mary would be one.
Judas would be one.
Moses would be one.

Mary said her famous YES....
But did she really have a choice?

It's not so easy to understand God...
but to say He picks and chooses who will be saved just makes no sense.
 
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John Caldwell

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I think Augustine brought the question up.
The church couldn't accept his ideas.

The ECFs learned from the Apostles...
why would they make such an important concept of Christianity the fact that we had to go into all the world and teach what Jesus taught and baptize -- Matthew 28:19...

Why would the writers of the N.T. and the ECFs make such an important concept that in Christianity we had to behave a certain way?

If God predestined all...wouldn't HIS will be done apart from anything WE did (which we were told to do?)

The above just makes calvinism unfeasible to me.

I DO believe that God CHOSE some for special purposes.
Mary would be one.
Judas would be one.
Moses would be one.

Mary said her famous YES....
But did she really have a choice?

It's not so easy to understand God...
but to say He picks and chooses who will be saved just makes no sense.
I agree with this. Where we disagree is that I do believe that Calvinism (in what it affirms, not necessarily in what specific Calvinists deny) represents salvation from the divine perspective (something that we cannot know completely).

The questions we may ask (did Judas have a choice when it had been determined; did the pharaoh when he would not let Israel go; or even - did Jesus have a choice) are philosophical. I think that much is because of the way that we think (Western ideologies and philosophies). This should not make us change Scripture to suit our understanding but I see this over and over again. Some Calvinists, for example, deny that Christ is the Propitiation of the sins for the world and change "world" to "elect". Yet this is unnecessary (even for Calvinism - John Calvin viewed "world" to mean "everyone without exception").

The problem with the Reformed view of "foreknowledge" is that the definition it is relational is often offered based not on Scripture but on a theological position (this can be true of the idea it is "pre-knowledge" as well).

But this does not mean that Calvinism itself teaches these things. Calvinism (the five points) is a very narrow and philosophical answer to a specific issue that arose within Calvinism concerning divine providence as it relates to salvation.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I think Augustine brought the question up.
The church couldn't accept his ideas.

The ECFs learned from the Apostles...
why would they make such an important concept of Christianity the fact that we had to go into all the world and teach what Jesus taught and baptize -- Matthew 28:19...

Why would the writers of the N.T. and the ECFs make such an important concept that in Christianity we had to behave a certain way?

If God predestined all...wouldn't HIS will be done apart from anything WE did (which we were told to do?)

The above just makes calvinism unfeasible to me.

I DO believe that God CHOSE some for special purposes.
Mary would be one.
Judas would be one.
Moses would be one.

Mary said her famous YES....
But did she really have a choice?

It's not so easy to understand God...
but to say He picks and chooses who will be saved just makes no sense.
Roman's 9:16-22 might help your search,
 
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John Caldwell

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Everyone has a choice.
This is an important consideration with the OP.

If those who choose evil never had a legitimate choice to do good then how can they justly be condemned for doing evil? If belief is not a choice, then how can Jesus call men to believe? The answer is that we do have a choice.
 
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John Caldwell

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Part of the reason that I am trying to divorce a specific definition of "foreknow" from Calvinism is that Calvinism has never held that "foreknow" means something relational rather than a pre-knowledge. Calvinists have, but this is not a definition within Calvinism itself.

Let's consider, for example, John Calvin. In discussing Roman 8 Calvin attributes God's foreknowledge to God's wisdom, "[f]or as it belongs to his wisdom to foreknow all future events, so it belongs to his power to rule and govern them by his hand."

The problem comes in when people want to simplify the topic to fit and support their theology or philosophy.

Does "foreknowledge" meaning "pre-knowledge" counter Calvinism? No, of course not. Calvin believed that God foreknew because God, in His counsel, decreed.

I believe that some Calvinists try to redefine terms ("foreknowledge" becomes relational, "world" becomes "all the elect", etc) NOT because Calvinism depends on it but because they want to exclude and shut out any other possible interpretation.

(Source: Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion)
 
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GodsGrace

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I agree with this. Where we disagree is that I do believe that Calvinism (in what it affirms, not necessarily in what specific Calvinists deny) represents salvation from the divine perspective (something that we cannot know completely).

The questions we may ask (did Judas have a choice when it had been determined; did the pharaoh when he would not let Israel go; or even - did Jesus have a choice) are philosophical. I think that much is because of the way that we think (Western ideologies and philosophies). This should not make us change Scripture to suit our understanding but I see this over and over again. Some Calvinists, for example, deny that Christ is the Propitiation of the sins for the world and change "world" to "elect". Yet this is unnecessary (even for Calvinism - John Calvin viewed "world" to mean "everyone without exception").

The problem with the Reformed view of "foreknowledge" is that the definition it is relational is often offered based not on Scripture but on a theological position (this can be true of the idea it is "pre-knowledge" as well).

But this does not mean that Calvinism itself teaches these things. Calvinism (the five points) is a very narrow and philosophical answer to a specific issue that arose within Calvinism concerning divine providence as it relates to salvation.
I would like you to know that I've gone beyong the TULIP points and have read some of the institutes.

I don't claim any expertise in the area which is why it would be nice to speak about it but it seems I can't do this without the other person going haywire on me.

To be frank,,,I don't know why this has to be. It's almost like the other member is upset to face my exegesis or almost like he's trying to convince himself as much as me...it's just not clear to me why it can't be discussed calmly,,,,as it is with you.

If you want to believe that God chooses who will be saved based on your understanding of scripture,,,then this is your belief and I don't agree but there's no need to become upset (not you).

I've encountered this over and over again.
It's either Piper or MacCarthur that stress how their church is to be loving toward those that are not the chosen. Maybe there's too much pride going on?
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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The OP. Deals with biblical truth and reality.
The philosophical speculation that is going on now has nothing to do with the biblical facts.
But , it is easier to not answer to truth, just have fun and make up your own truth...that is easier.
 

GodsGrace

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The OP. Deals with biblical truth and reality.
The philosophical speculation that is going on now has nothing to do with the biblical facts.
But , it is easier to not answer to truth, just have fun and make up your own truth...that is easier.
Maybe not everyone believes the O.P. is biblical truth?
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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I would like you to know that I've gone beyong the TULIP points and have read some of the institutes.

I don't claim any expertise in the area which is why it would be nice to speak about it but it seems I can't do this without the other person going haywire on me.

To be frank,,,I don't know why this has to be. It's almost like the other member is upset to face my exegesis or almost like he's trying to convince himself as much as me...it's just not clear to me why it can't be discussed calmly,,,,as it is with you.

If you want to believe that God chooses who will be saved based on your understanding of scripture,,,then this is your belief and I don't agree but there's no need to become upset (not you).

I've encountered this over and over again.
It's either Piper or MacCarthur that stress how their church is to be loving toward those that are not the chosen. Maybe there's too much pride going on?
You did not offer any exegesis, just church history. You never engaged the OP at all, you did not want to.
Do not worry. You now have the ascended master JonC.
He will redefine everything for you and maybe agree with everything you say.
What you will not get from him is what the confessional churches teach. So enjoy
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Sure. But it's about Israel.
Not each one of us individually.
Sorry, but it is not.
Do not despair, others will agree with you, so it is all good.
In fact you do not need the reformed thought, just take the direct opposite of what you will read and you will learn the other position.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Maybe not everyone believes the O.P. is biblical truth?
I am more than sure of that GG.
That is between them and God.
I just try and present truth and be faithful. Like in the parable of the sower,
Some seed gets stolen away.
That will happen here quite a bit now,lol but it will be nice and pleasant
 

GodsGrace

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You did not offer any exegesis, just church history. You never engaged the OP at all, you did not want to.
Do not worry. You now have the ascended master JonC.
He will redefine everything for you and maybe agree with everything you say.
What you will not get from him is what the confessional churches teach. So enjoy
I know what the confessional churches teach...if by confessional churches you mean the Westminster Confessions and those churches that agree with it.

What can I say AD? The more I learn about the theology of Calvinism,,,the more I dislike it.

It's NOT the God I know and love.
 
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GodsGrace

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I am more than sure of that GG.
That is between them and God.
I just try and present truth and be faithful. Like in the parable of the sower,
Some seed gets stolen away.
That will happen here quite a bit now,lol but it will be nice and pleasant
Listen to me...
Quit telling us all how correct you are...
post some scripture and we'll all answer to it.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I know what the confessional churches teach...if by confessional churches you mean the Westminster Confessions and those churches that agree with it.

What can I say AD? The more I learn about the theology of Calvinism,,,the more I dislike it.

It's NOT the God I know and love.

Many do not like the biblical God. Instead they invent a god who will do what they think or feel he should do.
In the OT they would carve out physical idols.
Now they just invent a god of their own imagination.
No fuss. If they do not like hell, they say he will not send anyone there.
One here said he does not like a god of predestination.
Some confront error to seek to promote biblical truth.
The loving thing to do is confront error and offer correction.
If a jw comes in here we cannot agree that denying Jesus is okay.
Some might,as they are so loving.
But that would not be biblical love.

So do not worry, be happy like that song a few years ago.