When is a christian NOT a Christian?

[Miss Hepburn]

I will soon be afraid to post in case the ‘language police’ grab me over my phraseology!

I can't even rem what the 'wrong' phrase was...I like that phrase, stumbling over a grain of sand...
I got called out to 'lose the ...' that I use (...) was annoying to them.
>>>>>>
I see Giuliano and I were typing at the same time...I like what he just said.

 

[Giuliano]

I tend to agree with Enoch...but I am wiling to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Thing is, the moment he mentioned the Christ spirit, alarm bells went off all over the place. My thoughts went immediately to Oprah Winfrey...all occultists refer to the Christ spirit, and it ain't nothing to do with the Son of God.

When I use the phrase Christ Spirit, I mean what Paul referred to as the Spirit of Christ. I see no reason to get alarmed.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe Jesus was born special in one way and it may not be wrong to say he was born as Jesus Christ; but I also believe he became special in another way at his baptism. Something was missing in the earth. What was lost at the time of Adam's fall was attracted back to earth by Jesus. This was the spiritual covering of man -- the connection between God and man. John the Baptist was reluctant to baptize Jesus, but Jesus said it was necessary. Do we believe him? John said he saw a special descent of the Holy Spirit. Surely this was an anointing of Jesus by God the Father Himself sending this Spirit down. Let us not be confused here. "Christ" means "anointed." It is the Greek version of the Hebrew word translated as Messiah. It does not mean "God." The Spirit descended and Jesus was indeed born in a new way. Angels had announced his birth to Mary. Here we see a voice from Heaven announcing, "Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

I'm going to agree but I also hear some "bells" going off.
Some denominations believe that Jesus was not born the Son of God, but BECAME the Son of God at His baptism. I believe Jesus was the Son of God from the very beginning of His existence on earth.

John had to baptize Jesus to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus, IOW, wanted to do everything correctly...Baptism was the correct thing to do.

And yes, we all know what Christ means, although it's always good to repeat.
It means the one sent by God...as you've stated.

You say that at baptism Jesus was born in a new way...this was my bell.
Jesus did not change at any point in His life...
He was born the Messiah, grew up as the Messiah, and died as the Messiah.

Remember now that God gave dominion over the earth to man. Thus it took a man to make the right decisions and exercise lawful and righteous dominion. Adam fell into error and lost his spiritual covering. Sin entered the world. Jesus came to correct those things. Notice that John the Baptist did not say "sins" but rather "sin" in this sentence: "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." This was "sin" which we humans couldn't fix. Even if we lived perfect lives somehow, this curse of sin removed -- death still reigned. If we sin, we can repent and be forgiven; but nothing we can do would fix this curse of death.

Agreed.

Christos as an anointing suggests oil being poured out. Yes, the Father poured it out, the Son received it; and what Jesus received from the Father can be shared with the followers of Jesus. It is one Spirit.

ok.
But what did Jesus receive from the Father?
Are you saying Jesus received the spirit at some point in His life?

We read how Eve was tempted by the serpent, so we ought not be too surprised that Satan showed up to tempt Jesus. Could he make Jesus fall as he had Eve? He tried and failed. Nothing was going to get Jesus to disobey the Father. That would have broken his connection with the Father. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

The resurrection of the saints depends on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Agreed.
Amen.

 

[Giuliano]

I'm going to agree but I also hear some "bells" going off.
Some denominations believe that Jesus was not born the Son of God, but BECAME the Son of God at His baptism. I believe Jesus was the Son of God from the very beginning of His existence on earth.

Jesus told Nicodemus that there were different kinds of being born. We all understand being born in physical bodies; but Jesus talked about being born of water . . . and of the Spirit. It seems clear to me (but perhaps not to you) that Jesus was born special in a very special way; but he was also born of water and it was announced. There is another announcement later of his being the Son at the Transfiguration.

John had to baptize Jesus to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus, IOW, wanted to do everything correctly...Baptism was the correct thing to do.

But why? And if Jesus already possessed that Spirit, why did it descend?

And yes, we all know what Christ means, although it's always good to repeat.
It means the one sent by God...as you've stated.

You say that at baptism Jesus was born in a new way...this was my bell.

You have Jesus' baptism as being meaningless.

Jesus did not change at any point in His life...
He was born the Messiah, grew up as the Messiah, and died as the Messiah.

You may believe this sincerely, but what do you make of this?

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
. . .
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

That needs reconciled with the earlier passage which sounds contradictory at first.

1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

I emphasize that dominion over the earth was given to man. It was a gift from God; and the gifts of God are without repentance. God did not make a mistake doing that. Thus it took a man to do this particular job, and Jesus did it. A man did it. I don't think people appreciate what Jesus gave up to come to the earth. He was willing to become lower than the angels if that was what was needed.

But what did Jesus receive from the Father?

The ability to connect man on the earth with God in Heaven. He came into the world to do that; and he accomplished it by obeying every word of the Father.

Are you saying Jesus received the spirit at some point in His life?

Doesn't the Bible say so in the Gospels?
He did receive a special Spirit, one which was not on the earth at the time.

 

[Helen]

I understand completely. And I agree, that us why I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Another phrase I step back from is Christ consciousness. But thanks for the reminder, yes, I can jump to conclusions too quickly.

Just remember B ( and @GodsGrace ) the thing is...just because the devil took God's words and the things of God and 'uses' them...does not make these phrases wrong!!

Just like the rainbow...it is now taken by the Enemy...the very sign God used as a message of comfort toward mankind...and now it is used for Sodomites. Does that make a rainbow wrong , bad, and suspect if I had it as my avatar? Would your first reaction be..."Ah...so Helen supports the sodomites..."

We have fallen far...and allow ourselves to be dictated to by the world.

Christ consciousness is still how we should live our life...( but yes, we usually say "God consciousness" )...but just because 'they the enemies' have stolen it, doesn't negate the truth of it. If you allow this...then you are allowing the enemy to have taken something from you. It is all ours...not his! I refuse to bend to it.

Just as I refuse to bow to "political correctness" ...but that is another story. lol

'If I live conscious of Him, I will not live conscious of sin.'

Just saying...

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus told Nicodemus that there were different kinds of being born. We all understand being born in physical bodies; but Jesus talked about being born of water . . . and of the Spirit. It seems clear to me (but perhaps not to you) that Jesus was born special in a very special way; but he was also born of water and it was announced. There is another announcement later of his being the Son at the Transfiguration.

But why? And if Jesus already possessed that Spirit, why did it descend?

I disagree with practically everything you've stated.
This will have to wait till after dinner,,,about two hours or so.

Would I love to know where people learn this stuff.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus told Nicodemus that there were different kinds of being born. We all understand being born in physical bodies; but Jesus talked about being born of water . . . and of the Spirit. It seems clear to me (but perhaps not to you) that Jesus was born special in a very special way; but he was also born of water and it was announced. There is another announcement later of his being the Son at the Transfiguration.

Please stop telling me what I believe.
I know what I believe....I don't know what YOU believe.

So are you saying that Jesus became the Son at some point in His life and this was announced at the Transfiguration?

But why? And if Jesus already possessed that Spirit, why did it descend?

But why what? Please speak in complete sentences.

Ok. So you're saying that Jesus was NOT born with His own spirit?
And His spirit descended at His baptism?

What descended at the baptism of Jesus was the HOLY SPIRIT.
One time when all three of the Godhead were present.

 

[Giuliano]

Giuliano,
For a guy who is brand new to this forum, you are one very presumptuous individual who wants to argue rather than accept the truth, and at the same time refuses to believe that Jesus if God.

So let me guess, you consider yourself the local dispenser of truth and if anyone disagrees with you, he's presumptuous? Give me a break if that's what you believe. And you're the fellow who said anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible about whether Jesus is God has the spirit of antichrist? Come now.

Why do you start out with something that is totally irrelevant?

You have an amazing way of being able to ignore context when dealing with the Scriptures. When John wrote that passage, he was warning his readers about false prophets. That's why I brought up the matter of what kind of leader I would not trust.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Got it? Shall I go on? Now of course, Jesus himself was filled with the Holy Spirit. God was made manifest in the flesh. How else could he have been resurrected? And we should believe the 120 were also filled with the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. We can believe then that they knew what they were talking about.

If you are a member of a church, then look for your spiritual leaders in your own church. When you come to a forum such as this you have two options (1) communicate Bible truth by rightly dividing the Word of Truth

You have fallen for a mistranslation, a very poor translation at that. When I read that verse, "something" told me to look at the original Greek. The word "divide" is wrong. The Word is what divides other things! The Word itself is not something we divide, taking this or that.

2 Timothy 2:15 - Bible Gateway

or (2) promote you false beliefs and hope someone falls for them.

Instead of vainly proclaiming my beliefs false and defaming me by implying I wish to deceive people, why not begin to take the Bible a little more seriously?

This is a totally BIZARRE statement.

I see you like to be dramatic. You seem to enjoy demeaning me and perhaps others too.

Christians don't merely *pretend* to know what happened 2000 or even 6000 years ago. God has given us a divine revelation in the Bible, therefore we know WITHOUT THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that it is true. and the Gospels are a historical record of the life and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth.

Your wobbly faith is showing. People get excited like this mostly when they feel threatened. I see really now that you know very little. You only think you know. That is why you get rattled.

You state things which are simply impossible to believe. You may want to believe the Bible is all a divine revelation that is completely true; but that tells me you read it without understanding what you read; or if you understood it when reading it, you forgot it soon after.

Here is a little test for you. Can you tell me what Pilate had written above Jesus on the cross? If the Gospels are "a historical record," what should we think when each Gospel says something different? I doubt you could tell me what was actually written. I wonder if you could come to an intelligent guess?

Now you are showing YOUR TRUE COLORS

. Had you understood what the Bible was revealing here, you would have also understood that no man has seen GOD THE FATHER.

I would say that you are likely guilty of what you accuse me of. You have added to the Scripture to suit your own fancy. What does say about you?

Would God tell Israel something that wasn't true? According to you, perhaps He would?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

You also seemed to forget what Jesus told the woman at the well.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

While I disagree with Jews on many things, I must acknowledge that the One True God was revealed to them. I do not believe in some god that changes over time.

Which does not mean that no man has seen GOD THE SON. Jesus is God who took human form -- "God (Theos) manifest in the flesh". So your comment is telling everyone here that you do not believe that Jesus is God!

You use language that is not familiar, language not in my Bible. "God the Son"? Why doesn't "Son of God" which is in the Bible enough for you? And "God who took human form"? Do you also believe that Adam was God since he was made in the image and likeness of God? Of course you don't. Have you never wondered why Jesus' title "Son of Man" was so important? He was asserting he was in the proper image and likeness of God, as Adam had been before the Fall.

And what does the word "manifest" mean? It means something like "revealed." If the wind blows your hat away, does that mean you saw the wind? You can't see it, but you also can't deny "something" is there manifesting and being revealed.

Now you are showing how presumptuous a brand new poster (with false doctrines) can be.

Are you accusing me here or simply pretending to be super-spiritual?

You do like to call names, don't you? Perhaps over time, I may understand the reason for your negativity.

I was doing neither when I wrote that: It was a statement of fact that people can lie?

It is scarcely enough for someone with unclean lips to mouth some words without understanding and correct intention. People can lie.

When someone talks about "the Christ Spirit" he is showing Gnostic tendencies (which were and are heretical).

There is no such thing as "the Christ Spirit making it possible to do the Father's works". Jesus -- who is God -- is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. At the same time He was always and continually filled with the Holy Spirit (the third Person of the triune Godhead). At the same time He was totally subject to the Father while He was on earth.

Here again you use some language and ideas not found in my Bible. I find it "bizarre" (to borrow a word you used of my ideas) for someone who claims the Bible as his guide.

Also, the passage under discussion had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

So what you did is go off on a tangent because you misrepresented what was being said about false teachers -- that they denied that Jesus Christ had come in the flesh -- that Jesus of Nazareth was God who had come in human form.

I will grant you one thing. It is possible to read 1 John 4:2-3 as about Jesus only; but you are -- well, simply wrong to be blunt about it -- when you say the passage in question had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer. Read the whole chapter again if you don't believe me. The text says nothing about Jesus of Nazareth being God who came in human form -- nothing -- please stop inventing things.

I would expect false teachers who want to see men and women led to destruction to deny that God was manifested in the flesh of Jesus and to teach others that God cannot manifest in their flesh as well.

 

[Giuliano]

Please stop telling me what I believe.
I know what I believe....I don't know what YOU believe.

So are you saying that Jesus became the Son at some point in His life and this was announced at the Transfiguration?

I am saying there are three ways of being born: The flesh, of water, and of the Spirit. So Jesus told Nicodemus. When we read the Gospels, we hear the Sonship of Jesus announced on three key occasions.

But why what? Please speak in complete sentences.

Ok. So you're saying that Jesus was NOT born with His own spirit?

Of course, he was born with his own spirit. We are all born with our own spirits.

And His spirit descended at His baptism?

Another Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ if you like, descended at his baptism. This is true too for people who genuinely repent of their sins and get baptized. The Holy Spirit descends for them too. That does make the believer perfect all at once. Work remains to be done, under the Guidance of the Spirit.

What descended at the baptism of Jesus was the HOLY SPIRIT.

Yes.

One time when all three of the Godhead were present.

I wouldn't put it that way.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am saying there are three ways of being born: The flesh, of water, and of the Spirit. So Jesus told Nicodemus. When we read the Gospels, we hear the Sonship of Jesus announced on three key occasions.
Of course, he was born with his own spirit. We are all born with our own spirits.
Another Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ if you like, descended at his baptism. This is true too for people who genuinely repent of their sins and get baptized. The Holy Spirit descends for them too. That does make the believer perfect all at once. Work remains to be done, under the Guidance of the Spirit.

Yes.
I wouldn't put it that way.

I think we're on the same page.
I hear many weird ideas these days and language is becoming very important whereas in the past it wasn't (for me).

The flesh, of water and of the spirit.
What is the water in John 3 to you?
I've always believed it to be the water of physical birth,,,
but I'm not so sure anymore.

And WHY were not the 3 of the God head present at Jesus' baptism?
God Father speaking
Jesus being baptized
The Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove.

Later...

 

[amadeus]

So who is a Christian?

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Some may not call themselves Christians. Some may have received the Gospel from an angel.

Some people will be surprised on Judgment Day.

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Welcome to the forum, Guiliano. I haven't seen you around in a long while. I used to go by your forum once in a while, but I am slower and older these days. Perhaps you remember me. There are also a few others around here you may know although not all of them may be using the same names that you knew then by...

 

[Grailhunter]

I am saying there are three ways of being born: The flesh, of water, and of the Spirit. So Jesus told Nicodemus. When we read the Gospels, we hear the Sonship of Jesus announced on three key occasions.
Of course, he was born with his own spirit. We are all born with our own spirits.
Another Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ if you like, descended at his baptism. This is true too for people who genuinely repent of their sins and get baptized. The Holy Spirit descends for them too. That does make the believer perfect all at once. Work remains to be done, under the Guidance of the Spirit.

Yes.
I wouldn't put it that way.

Giuliano, welcome aboard,
I am sure you know that the beliefs of what happens when a person is baptized and or the significance of baptism is as diverse as the denominations. I am not sure how much consensus you are going to get on that here.
But I am interested in hearing more about what you believe of Christ's birth and baptism, and why. Not being critical, but rather curious.

 

[Marymog]

I’m going to let you in on a secret, only because I like you.
You have no need that any man teach you.

Then why are you trying to teach me???

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Tecarta BibleI don’t have a Protestant teacher, why would I, is the Holy Spirit insufficient?.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret......The Holy Spirit told you something different then he told Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Calvin and Luther.

Sooooo did the Holy Spirit lie to them or you???

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

You really need to read your Bible again. The issue with that couple was not doctrinal, and I'm not interested in the Catholic church's definition of heresy... They simply used any excuse to wipe out anyone who disagreed with them.

Nope....don't need to read the bible again. Let's try this again kiddo....

The Church at the time was practicing/preaching that property was shared. Any sales of property would go to the Church for the good of all. If one did not accept or practice what The Church was teaching/practicing they were treated accordingly.

Ananias and Sapphira did not accept or practice what The Church was teaching/practicing which is the definition of heresy. They paid with their life for their heretical act.

What the Church bound on earth (sharing of property) was bound in heaven.....Just like Scripture says!!!

 

[Helen]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret......The Holy Spirit told you something different then he told Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Calvin and Luther.

Sooooo did the Holy Spirit lie to them or you???

Curious Mary

If only I had a $ for every time you have used that same old worn out argument of yours.

 

[Giuliano]

Welcome to the forum, Guiliano. I haven't seen you around in a long while. I used to go by your forum once in a while, but I am slower and older these days. Perhaps you remember me. There are also a few others around here you may know although not all of them may be using the same names that you knew then by...

I do remember you, Amadeus. Good to see you again, still alive and kicking. Thanks for the welcome.

 

[amadeus]

I do remember you, Amadeus. Good to see you again, still alive and kicking. Thanks for the welcome.

I remember having some lengthy discussions with you on some of the those forums. I remember learning some good things from you. Really good to have you here.

 

[Giuliano]

I think we're on the same page.
I hear many weird ideas these days and language is becoming very important whereas in the past it wasn't (for me).

When it comes to the Bible, sometimes the exact word can be important. If our minds substitute some other word, we can be misled.

The flesh, of water and of the spirit.
What is the water in John 3 to you?
I've always believed it to be the water of physical birth,,,
but I'm not so sure anymore.

I've run across that idea with several other people. I can't see that as what Jesus meant however since that would be part of being born in the flesh.

To me, it means what water often means elsewhere in the Bible. For example, what are the living waters? And if there are living waters, are there dead waters? Well, yes, there are. There is no need to speculate what the "sea" was in the book of Jonah. He tells us he was in sheol or hell. The waters, he then also says, encompassed his soul. There are other passages which speak of the soul being poured out. This one is interesting:

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus was preparing to do this where we read:

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Then we read this too, which is more than an idle detail -- more than a "fact of history" -- there is also a spiritual lesson in it:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The church, the Body of Christ, was being formed by the blood and water which came from his side. This is also how Eve was formed from the side of Adam. The word "rib" isn't in the original Hebrew. They have a word for rib too that's found elsewhere. The word is "side." The original being h'adam contained both male and female -- both were properly formed too since both had been made in the image and likeness of God.

Now someone added a verse to 1 John 5, but this one is not in question so far as I know:

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Now back to Genesis where the waters are said to be divided into lower and upper waters. The upper waters are also often called air or clouds since there is water in those clouds. And then we see in Exodus that Israel went through the sea on dry land (not getting wet) and being led by the Cloud of Presence. They were being baptized.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Today, the sea (the lower waters) still contains some nasty things. Satan himself also retains some influence in "air" or "upper waters" being called the prince of the air. There will come a day when there is no further need for the "sea" and it will be done away with as John tells us in Revelation. It remains necessary today however since our souls are formed out of this type of spiritual water. Our minds are formed of water in a more intelligent state called upper waters.

Baptism corrects sins of ignorance, sins inherited just by being born in a water world. We didn't commit them, but we will pay for them if they aren't fixed. We didn't eat of the forbidden fruit, but we would pay anyway if something wasn't fixed. I cannot tell you how he does it, but Jesus knows how to wash the soul of such sin, and the person who comes to him and accepts him as Lord will have his soul washed and that person then becomes born of water. I compare the situation also to the developing fetus in a woman's womb. We become attached to Jesus through the Body of Christ -- and there is a connection similar to that of a grape growing on a vine.

How does a woman's blood do its job? That too is something of a mystery to me, but I know it does. It provides the nutrition the developing fetus needs; and if there are poisons or waste byproducts, the woman's blood removes those.

Some of the parables also mention the sea. I don't have time to go into those now, and this post is getting long as it is; but I found them informative about the significance of water and the sea.

And WHY were not the 3 of the God head present at Jesus' baptism?
God Father speaking
Jesus being baptized
The Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove.

Later...

I see One God manifesting in three different ways.

 

[Waiting on him]

Then why are you trying to teach me???

Curious Mary

I just quoted scripture, hopefully the Spirit will reveal the truth?