When is a christian NOT a Christian?

[Grailhunter]

When it comes to the Bible, sometimes the exact word can be important. If our minds substitute some other word, we can be misled.

I've run across that idea with several other people. I can't see that as what Jesus meant however since that would be part of being born in the flesh.

To me, it means what water often means elsewhere in the Bible. For example, what are the living waters? And if there are living waters, are there dead waters? Well, yes, there are. There is no need to speculate what the "sea" was in the book of Jonah. He tells us he was in sheol or hell. The waters, he then also says, encompassed his soul. There are other passages which speak of the soul being poured out. This one is interesting:

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus was preparing to do this where we read:

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Then we read this too, which is more than an idle detail -- more than a "fact of history" -- there is also a spiritual lesson in it:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The church, the Body of Christ, was being formed by the blood and water which came from his side. This is also how Eve was formed from the side of Adam. The word "rib" isn't in the original Hebrew. They have a word for rib too that's found elsewhere. The word is "side." The original being h'adam contained both male and female -- both were properly formed too since both had been made in the image and likeness of God.

Now someone added a verse to 1 John 5, but this one is not in question so far as I know:

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Now back to Genesis where the waters are said to be divided into lower and upper waters. The upper waters are also often called air or clouds since there is water in those clouds. And then we see in Exodus that Israel went through the sea on dry land (not getting wet) and being led by the Cloud of Presence. They were being baptized.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Today, the sea (the lower waters) still contains some nasty things. Satan himself also retains some influence in "air" or "upper waters" being called the prince of the air. There will come a day when there is no further need for the "sea" and it will be done away with as John tells us in Revelation. It remains necessary today however since our souls are formed out of this type of spiritual water. Our minds are formed of water in a more intelligent state called upper waters.

Baptism corrects sins of ignorance, sins inherited just by being born in a water world. We didn't commit them, but we will pay for them if they aren't fixed. We didn't eat of the forbidden fruit, but we would pay anyway if something wasn't fixed. I cannot tell you how he does it, but Jesus knows how to wash the soul of such sin, and the person who comes to him and accepts him as Lord will have his soul washed and that person then becomes born of water. I compare the situation also to the developing fetus in a woman's womb. We become attached to Jesus through the Body of Christ -- and there is a connection similar to that of a grape growing on a vine.

How does a woman's blood do its job? That too is something of a mystery to me, but I know it does. It provides the nutrition the developing fetus needs; and if there are poisons or waste byproducts, the woman's blood removes those.

Some of the parables also mention the sea. I don't have time to go into those now, and this post is getting long as it is; but I found them informative about the significance of water and the sea.
I see One God manifesting in three different ways.

Thank you very much...curiosity satisfied.

 

[Waiting on him]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret......The Holy Spirit told you something different then he told Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Calvin and Luther.

Sooooo did the Holy Spirit lie to them or you???

Curious Mary

Never met any of these men, but I’m sure none of them were crucified for me.

 

[brakelite]

The Church at the time was practicing/preaching that property was

No, the church was doing no such thing. Such sharing was on a voluntary basis as the holy spirit led. Ananias and Sapphira, in seeking to maintain good standing in the church, did some property but only have some of the proceeds but lied, pretending they had given all. God struck them dead... Not the church... As a lesson to the early church that deception and lying was a serious business that God would not tolerate.
But I'm not surprised at a Catholic proposing that the punishment was church instigated... Your church history attests to this heretical mindset and resulted in the murder of millions.

 

[Giuliano]

Giuliano, welcome aboard,
I am sure you know that the beliefs of what happens when a person is baptized and or the significance of baptism is as diverse as the denominations. I am not sure how much consensus you are going to get on that here.
But I am interested in hearing more about what you believe of Christ's birth and baptism, and why. Not being critical, but rather curious.

I doubt it too that we can expect much consensus.

I read Genesis 1 in a way that may seem radical to many. I think Genesis 1 has several applications. It's relevant to several situations.

I see the birth of Jesus as corresponding to Day 1: Let there be light.

The baptism corresponds to Day 2, of course.

Day 3 in Genesis has dry land appearing. I see Jesus as manifesting as the Rock that came down from Heaven. It was already true in Heaven, but remained to be made true on earth according to the Father's Will. I find it quite interesting too that Jesus, as foundation rock, was already thinking of the stones that would be laid on that foundation; and so we see Jesus talking to Simon Peter, calling Cephas or the rock. You may also find it interesting that the same word is used for a stone and a son. We are told Jesus was announced as "son" -- but for me, it also means a "stone" that came out of the water.

At this point, Satan turns up. He talks about stones too. "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." Could Jesus have done that? I think so; but it would not have followed the pattern given in Genesis. Things needed to proceed in orderly fashion, one step at a time, and not rushed by performing miracles to satisfy self. Jesus answered, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Jesus had the seeds of immortality -- he had to grow his own spiritual body while also sowing the same seeds in others. That is the meaning of the parable of the sower and wheat. The bread for his own spiritual body would be made from that wheat. Let us not suppose that the Bread and Wine of Communion have anything to do with the material body of Jesus on the cross. He had that Bread and Wine before the crucifixion and gave it to his disciples. Miracles can be performed too by someone with spiritual bread. He also used some of that "spiritual bread" to perform miracles.

Day 4 in Genesis corresponds to the Transfiguration. The material body had been so changed over time, the whole could be transformed. Only three disciples were permitted to see it -- and I'm surprised they were. Such events usually take place without anyone else seeing anything. Many Christians are being changed too even without knowing themselves. If they don't notice themselves, why expect anyone else to? But even error we find and correct is a transforming of the fallen and sinful into the Light. Paul hints at this:

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

It's the same word translated as "transfigured" in Matthew 17. It is a process that occurs over time; but there is also a dramatic moment when everything that remains is changed and the glory of God can be revealed.

Skipping a few days in Genesis, this is not the change however that Paul means in 1 Corinthians 15. The body, having been changed from from darkness to Light, then takes its final form. Paul is right too when he says not everyone must "sleep" (or die) before this happens. Most do, most do, but not all. There are a few rare individuals who have seen death completely defeated -- and their physical bodies may look physical to the eyes of others, but they are of Light and only Light. Such people are truly born of the Spirit, and they can do what Jesus said those born of the Spirit can do.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I find it quite interesting too that Jesus demonstrated an ability after his Resurrection that he did not demonstrate before. He could dematerialize and materialize a body wherever and whenever he wanted. I would say that he was able to move his spiritual body around independently of his physical body before then -- but he seems not to be able to materialize a body so solid that people could touch it.

Indeed, indeed, I would say anyone born of water has the ability to separate soul from body and move around unattached to the body. I know many people may think Satan took Jesus up bodily to look at things, but that is a naive view. It is an impossible view. They were traveling with Jesus outside of his body. The mountain they visited was not a physical mountain. How could that be? The text cannot be read to mean a physical mountain.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

If anyone thinks that is a physical mountain, tell me where such a mountain is that you can see all the kingdoms of the world from it. There is more evidence too that Jesus had observed this moving around without the physical body, of moving like the wind, since he told Nicodemus he'd seen it.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

But to sum it: For me, the first step of becoming a Christian is coming to the Light. The second is baptism -- and it's not the physical water that is going to do anything. Then comes the "new creature" emerging from the water, like dry land from the water. The seed of immortality can grow in such a person.

 

[Giuliano]

I remember having some lengthy discussions with you on some of the those forums. I remember learning some good things from you. Really good to have you here.

Thanks!

 

[Waiting on him]

But to sum it: For me, the first step of becoming a Christian is coming to the Light. The second is baptism -- and it's not the physical water that is going to do anything. Then comes the "new creature" emerging from the water, like dry land from the water. The seed of immortality can grow in such a person.

Exactly what happened when Elijah smote the waters with the lentil.
Not sure if I got the correct Elijah?

 

[Waiting on him]

Exactly what happened when Elijah smote the waters with the lentil.
Not sure if I got the correct Elijah?

Also what’s the contrast between him being able to set his affairs in order, but in the New Testament there was one that wasn’t permitted

 

[Grailhunter]

I doubt it too that we can expect much consensus.

I read Genesis 1 in a way that may seem radical to many. I think Genesis 1 has several applications. It's relevant to several situations.

I see the birth of Jesus as corresponding to Day 1: Let there be light.

The baptism corresponds to Day 2, of course.

Day 3 in Genesis has dry land appearing. I see Jesus as manifesting as the Rock that came down from Heaven. It was already true in Heaven, but remained to be made true on earth according to the Father's Will. I find it quite interesting too that Jesus, as foundation rock, was already thinking of the stones that would be laid on that foundation; and so we see Jesus talking to Simon Peter, calling Cephas or the rock. You may also find it interesting that the same word is used for a stone and a son. We are told Jesus was announced as "son" -- but for me, it also means a "stone" that came out of the water.

At this point, Satan turns up. He talks about stones too. "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread." Could Jesus have done that? I think so; but it would not have followed the pattern given in Genesis. Things needed to proceed in orderly fashion, one step at a time, and not rushed by performing miracles to satisfy self. Jesus answered, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Jesus had the seeds of immortality -- he had to grow his own spiritual body while also sowing the same seeds in others. That is the meaning of the parable of the sower and wheat. The bread for his own spiritual body would be made from that wheat. Let us not suppose that the Bread and Wine of Communion have anything to do with the material body of Jesus on the cross. He had that Bread and Wine before the crucifixion and gave it to his disciples. Miracles can be performed too by someone with spiritual bread. He also used some of that "spiritual bread" to perform miracles.

Day 4 in Genesis corresponds to the Transfiguration. The material body had been so changed over time, the whole could be transformed. Only three disciples were permitted to see it -- and I'm surprised they were. Such events usually take place without anyone else seeing anything. Many Christians are being changed too even without knowing themselves. If they don't notice themselves, why expect anyone else to? But even error we find and correct is a transforming of the fallen and sinful into the Light. Paul hints at this:

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

It's the same word translated as "transfigured" in Matthew 17. It is a process that occurs over time; but there is also a dramatic moment when everything that remains is changed and the glory of God can be revealed.

Skipping a few days in Genesis, this is not the change however that Paul means in 1 Corinthians 15. The body, having been changed from from darkness to Light, then takes its final form. Paul is right too when he says not everyone must "sleep" (or die) before this happens. Most do, most do, but not all. There are a few rare individuals who have seen death completely defeated -- and their physical bodies may look physical to the eyes of others, but they are of Light and only Light. Such people are truly born of the Spirit, and they can do what Jesus said those born of the Spirit can do.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I find it quite interesting too that Jesus demonstrated an ability after his Resurrection that he did not demonstrate before. He could dematerialize and materialize a body wherever and whenever he wanted. I would say that he was able to move his spiritual body around independently of his physical body before then -- but he seems not to be able to materialize a body so solid that people could touch it.

Indeed, indeed, I would say anyone born of water has the ability to separate soul from body and move around unattached to the body. I know many people may think Satan took Jesus up bodily to look at things, but that is a naive view. It is an impossible view. They were traveling with Jesus outside of his body. The mountain they visited was not a physical mountain. How could that be? The text cannot be read to mean a physical mountain.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

If anyone thinks that is a physical mountain, tell me where such a mountain is that you can see all the kingdoms of the world from it. There is more evidence too that Jesus had observed this moving around without the physical body, of moving like the wind, since he told Nicodemus he'd seen it.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

But to sum it: For me, the first step of becoming a Christian is coming to the Light. The second is baptism -- and it's not the physical water that is going to do anything. Then comes the "new creature" emerging from the water, like dry land from the water. The seed of immortality can grow in such a person.

Again thank you, Giuliano. It is obvious that you have put a lot of work and thought in it. That sort of concentration on the scriptures I believe is a form of praise to God. It takes some courage to put something like that out there because it is part of you. I am sure we will have some interesting conversations. The way you reached your conclusions has a style that I am familiar with, nearly strict. Certain rules that you keep standard. So I am assuming that you are familiar with Thomas Aquinas. Not that you borrowed your conclusions from him, but I see a similar style of formulation. Again thanks

 

[Waiting on him]

I think I may have figured out the answer to the OP; after reading @Giulianos last post it dawned on me it’s only when their declaring the glory of Christ.

 

[Waiting on him]

I think I may have figured out the answer to the OP; after reading @Giulianos last post it dawned on me it’s only when their declaring the glory of Christ.

Their not a Christian when it’s their own glory is the declaration

 

[Miss Hepburn]

They're not a Christian when it’s their own glory is the declaration

I don't know anyone that does that , personally.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don't know anyone that does that , personally.

Here where I live it’s very common, just the other day I had a man tell me he had the Spiritual gift of exaltation . I said what do you mean he he replied, I exalt myself.

 

[Waiting on him]

I believe I spelled that incorrectly

 

[Giuliano]

Again thank you, Giuliano. It is obvious that you have put a lot of work and thought in it. That sort of concentration on the scriptures I believe is a form of praise to God. It takes some courage to put something like that out there because it is part of you. I am sure we will have some interesting conversations. The way you reached your conclusions has a style that I am familiar with, nearly strict. Certain rules that you keep standard. So I am assuming that you are familiar with Thomas Aquinas. Not that you borrowed your conclusions from him, but I see a similar style of formulation. Again thanks

Thank you for those kind words. I try to be careful lest I fall into error, spout it out and have lead others astray as well as myself. While I am not a Catholic, I will admit to having read some Catholic writings to my benefit. I can't recall reading much by Thomas Aquinas except bits and pieces.

 

[Giuliano]

I think I may have figured out the answer to the OP; after reading @Giulianos last post it dawned on me it’s only when their declaring the glory of Christ.

As the tune has it, "This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine." While we can say Jesus was and is the Light of the world, he also gave us the ability to act as lamps or candles to shine the same Light. In a way we also become the Light.

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for those kind words. I try to be careful lest I fall into error, spout it out and have lead others astray as well as myself. While I am not a Catholic, I will admit to having read some Catholic writings to my benefit. I can't recall reading much by Thomas Aquinas except bits and pieces.

We are going to have fun. Hope you say around awhile.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Here where I live it’s very common, just the other day I had a man tell me he had the Spiritual gift of exaltation . I said what do you mean he replied, I exalt myself.

I know this may sound stupid...but what does that mean?
"I exalt myself".
That's funny. Who talks like that? Could he have been just so happy to be free of low self-esteem finally...and
it felt like a gift? I wasn't there.
I hope he wasn't excluding God. (Well, he did say it was a spiritual gift...and Who gives those? God, ha.)
It reminds me of Walt Whitman's 'Song of Myself'.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Again thank you, Giuliano. It is obvious that you have put a lot
of work and thought in it.
That sort of concentration on the scriptures
I believe is a form of praise to God.

I agree.

 

[Giuliano]

I deliver newspapers for my living, and I was out doing that when I thought of what James wrote.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

He may still be a Christian for all I know, but he's placing himself in danger. I say he may still be a Christian since James was writing to Christians to warn them, to get them to shape up and start acting like a Christian. Some things should not be, he says.

3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Indeed can a fountain send forth both sweet water and bitter at the same place? We can try to have it so; but that's like hiding a lethal poison with lots of sugar. The sweetness may entice us (the way the fruit that was pleasant to the eye enticed Eve); but that fruit was deadly. We could even suppose that maybe it was how good and evil can get mixed up together and confuse us. Maybe it wasn't the "knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil" but the knowledge of good and evil mixed together. After all, Eve could see "the tree was good for food." That suggests to me she knew what good was but didn't know what good and evil mixed together was.

Then I thought about how Adam and Eve spoke to God after eaten the fruit. Neither of them came out and admitted making a mistake. They told the truth in one way, that's for sure; but it was mixed with guile and avoiding the whole truth. Adam seems to imply it was partly God's fault when he said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." Eve also told the truth in a way; but then the serpent had also told the truth in a way -- half the truth anyway.

Then I thought of Cain and his tragedy. I hope I don't shock anyone when I say like Cain. I think God was right to protect him the way He did.
Cain was good and evil mixed together again. Cain wanted God's approval. I find that commendable. He was also right to be disappointed when his offering was not accepted; but he then went wrong by picking a quarrel with Abel. Nothing was stopping Cain from altering course so his offerings in the future would please God; but anger overtook him and he struck out at Abel -- I think because he felt inferior. Was that sin yet? Not entirely, because God warned him that sin was ready to pounce if he wasn't careful. The problem that began with an "unbridled tongue" became a bigger problem.

James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

Cain's anger finally led to murder as we all know. I believe, that Cain still wanted to feel God's love since he said, "thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid." I think Cain was greatly hurt to be separated from God; and I can see the good in Cain for that and why God partly forgave him and protected him. It was a great tragedy, and I think we can spot the same tendency in some Christians who really want a connection with God but stumble when it comes to reforming themselves. I can see the good in them, but then there's that poison mixed in with the good.

The unkind word can be said to be almost the same sin as murder -- it's only a matter of degree.

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Cain had no reason to be angry with Abel. He was in danger when he said those angry words because he felt inferior or rejected. Things fell into place for me, fitting Matthew, James and Genesis together.

So it seemed to me that the lesson I drew from that was that if we find ourselves about to say something angry or even unkind and especially if there is no good reason for or because our feelings are hurt and we feel like striking at someone, it's an opportunity to ask God to tame our tongues. James says we can't do that ourselves -- it seems that maybe that "old tongue" is part of the fallen Adam nature that only God can tame -- but if we refuse to say the unpleasant words, we can ask God to tame it for us.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

It did that for Cain. Better to nip such things in the bud when we catch it in ourselves and ask God to give us "new tongues" or as Isaiah put it, "clean lips."

 

[GodsGrace]

When it comes to the Bible, sometimes the exact word can be important. If our minds substitute some other word, we can be misled.

I've run across that idea with several other people. I can't see that as what Jesus meant however since that would be part of being born in the flesh.

To me, it means what water often means elsewhere in the Bible. For example, what are the living waters? And if there are living waters, are there dead waters? Well, yes, there are. There is no need to speculate what the "sea" was in the book of Jonah. He tells us he was in sheol or hell. The waters, he then also says, encompassed his soul. There are other passages which speak of the soul being poured out. This one is interesting:

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus was preparing to do this where we read:

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Then we read this too, which is more than an idle detail -- more than a "fact of history" -- there is also a spiritual lesson in it:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The church, the Body of Christ, was being formed by the blood and water which came from his side. This is also how Eve was formed from the side of Adam. The word "rib" isn't in the original Hebrew. They have a word for rib too that's found elsewhere. The word is "side." The original being h'adam contained both male and female -- both were properly formed too since both had been made in the image and likeness of God.

Now someone added a verse to 1 John 5, but this one is not in question so far as I know:

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Now back to Genesis where the waters are said to be divided into lower and upper waters. The upper waters are also often called air or clouds since there is water in those clouds. And then we see in Exodus that Israel went through the sea on dry land (not getting wet) and being led by the Cloud of Presence. They were being baptized.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Today, the sea (the lower waters) still contains some nasty things. Satan himself also retains some influence in "air" or "upper waters" being called the prince of the air. There will come a day when there is no further need for the "sea" and it will be done away with as John tells us in Revelation. It remains necessary today however since our souls are formed out of this type of spiritual water. Our minds are formed of water in a more intelligent state called upper waters.

Baptism corrects sins of ignorance, sins inherited just by being born in a water world. We didn't commit them, but we will pay for them if they aren't fixed. We didn't eat of the forbidden fruit, but we would pay anyway if something wasn't fixed. I cannot tell you how he does it, but Jesus knows how to wash the soul of such sin, and the person who comes to him and accepts him as Lord will have his soul washed and that person then becomes born of water. I compare the situation also to the developing fetus in a woman's womb. We become attached to Jesus through the Body of Christ -- and there is a connection similar to that of a grape growing on a vine.

How does a woman's blood do its job? That too is something of a mystery to me, but I know it does. It provides the nutrition the developing fetus needs; and if there are poisons or waste byproducts, the woman's blood removes those.

Some of the parables also mention the sea. I don't have time to go into those now, and this post is getting long as it is; but I found them informative about the significance of water and the sea.
I see One God manifesting in three different ways.

Thanks so much for such a good reply.
Not much to add !

Re your last sentence...
Yes,,, there is only one God.
Manifesting in three different ways gets into a heresy...but it's difficult to speak of the Trinity or Godhead.

I think you mean that there is One God but there are 3 persons in Him.
Great post.