Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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brakelite

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ah, you are kidding i hope; popes claim "king of kings?"
wow, worse than i thought
Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility.
(Quoadea quoeconcernunt papae dignitatem, auctoritatem, seu potestatem, et infallibilitatem.)

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."
(#1. "Papa tantae est dignitatis et cesitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius.")

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
(#13. Hinc Papa triplici corona coronatur tanquam rex coeli, terre et infernoram.")Lucius Ferraris, “Papa,” art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. (“Handy Library”), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.
ya like i'm sooo out of line there right narf :D

well c'mon pEnoch you obv have an unnatural attachment to the kjv bro, i mean you are waaay out on the end of that bellcurve ok bro, no biggie. You pretty much also just gotta respect that some ppl might be offended by having Oester subbed for Passover, specially considering Christ's relationship
there? Nah, just kidding, you don't. have to.

And after she has been allowed to usurp so abominably, how can the rest of the tranny not be suspect?
It's your choice ok, but this dogged insistence on such a flawed work might be worth examining a little more? Maybe it has you kinda gripped? btw no offense but you dont think 'enoch' is maybe a bit pretentious, while we're at it? I mention this bc they go together imo, ok. You profess yourself wise, yeh, and you know what happens to those ppl? According to the kjv you love so much?
So see all this "KJV, KJV, I love the kjv, only the kjv, foreveranever" bit is fine and all, but we can read bro ok
While we are all aware of the several translation issues within the KJV, (Easter included) ,(and ironically Enoch has just yesterday rebuked me for not appreciating the many times the translators got "Sheol" wrong in the KJV, ) I guess we can all be a little selective in what we call error and not error.
Aside from that, we them have the underhanded manner in which the RSV was introduced to the Protestant world for the very proud of undermining the faith protestants had in the KJV... But because the KJ was wrong in its message, but because it's message disagreed with Rome. Books are available revealing how most of the modern versions are based on the same pretend corrections of the RSV and all of them Pro Catholic... And nine of them based on sound manuscripts.
 

aspen

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boy, the Catholic Church sure is powerful in your mind brakelight....perhaps hating it takes up even more of your theology than your church!

Btw, the Catholic Church doesn’t spend a minute thinking about SDAs.......
 

Giuliano

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Prior to this phrase, however, we read, “Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the [Jewish] sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors.”

This Bull is addressing people who are placing their hope and salvation on circumcision and not in Christ. Hence the term, “legal prescriptions”. As I pointed out before – the key phrase here is “UNLESS they recoil at some time from these errors.” It’s not an anathema to those who were circumcised – but to those who believed that it leads to salvation.

The document is actually called “Decree in Behalf of the Jacobites”. The Jacobites or “Copts” (Egypt) had recently come back to full communion with the Church after the East-West Split.

The decree declares that when we receive the Gospel, it becomes sinful to observe the religious ceremonies of the Old Law - even if we’re doing it without putting any real hope in them. This is because they merely POINT to what has already come – which is Christ.
Why be so severe about it and forbid circumcision? Who can tell why someone gets circumcised? Had the Catholic Church given up trying to convert Jews -- is that why it was okay for Paul to circumcise Timothy but not okay for Catholics after this Bull?

By this kind of reasoning, the Catholic Church would have banned religious statues. While most Catholics are not putting their faith in them, they remain a potential source of trouble. (I have a statue of St. Francis myself, in front of me now, by the way.) Or are they okay since the Jews did not use them, but forbade them?

Why forbid the sabbath but then insist that people observe the first day of the week? Are people putting their hope in which day they observe?
 

bbyrd009

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God has His own reasons at times for doing things which we may not immediately understand. Sometimes even only after many years do we begin to understand why!
the Spirit will lead you places to teach you the lesson you need to learn, huh?
The Catholic organization serves God, or i guess it wouldnt still be here.
 

bbyrd009

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Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility.
(Quoadea quoeconcernunt papae dignitatem, auctoritatem, seu potestatem, et infallibilitatem.)

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."
(#1. "Papa tantae est dignitatis et cesitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius.")

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
(#13. Hinc Papa triplici corona coronatur tanquam rex coeli, terre et infernoram.")Lucius Ferraris, “Papa,” art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. (“Handy Library”), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.

While we are all aware of the several translation issues within the KJV, (Easter included) ,(and ironically Enoch has just yesterday rebuked me for not appreciating the many times the translators got "Sheol" wrong in the KJV, ) I guess we can all be a little selective in what we call error and not error.
Aside from that, we them have the underhanded manner in which the RSV was introduced to the Protestant world for the very proud of undermining the faith protestants had in the KJV... But because the KJ was wrong in its message, but because it's message disagreed with Rome. Books are available revealing how most of the modern versions are based on the same pretend corrections of the RSV and all of them Pro Catholic... And nine of them based on sound manuscripts.
ah well i guess i was aware of part 1 on some level; at least it is made crystal clear, and imo one cannot read their Bibles and come to too many false conclusions there huh. As to part two, i dont really know the RSV, dont refer to it much/any for whatever reason, dont read the Bible much like a normal book anyway any more, like reading a whole chapter in English without pausing to interpret, to absorb the surface story, so i guess i'm kinda (thankfully) immunized to all the version debates. Imo dont rely on any one version, problem solved?
 

bbyrd009

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boy, the Catholic Church sure is powerful in your mind brakelight....perhaps hating it takes up even more of your theology than your church!

Btw, the Catholic Church doesn’t spend a minute thinking about SDAs.......
possibly one of their chief functions, yeh? To provide an opposer for ppl to fight? Lol
 

GodsGrace

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I already said that "...it should be obvious that we do not have the original manuscripts". So did you want me to repeat this a few times?
No need to get huffy.

Apparently you don't understand that we don't have THE ORIGINALS or the COPIES of the ORIGINALS.

Want me to repeat that a few times till you understand it?
 

Enoch111

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No need to get huffy. Apparently you don't understand that we don't have THE ORIGINALS or the COPIES of the ORIGINALS. Want me to repeat that a few times till you understand it?
If that is true why do you bother? According to your above comments you don't believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
 

GodsGrace

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there is a formula that establishes confidence based upon the number of extant copies of any work, Bible or no, and fwiw the Bible has no equal, no near-equal, and nothing even a magnitude lower, is my understanding? Many passages, entire books are at a minimum hundreds or even thousands of times more reliable on a confidence index than works 1500-1800 years newer?

I dont think anyone even srsly debates this, GG. The variances are vanishingly few, and well known? Less than a hundred variances in such a tome at such an age would be stupid amazing--we have after all suffered a Dark Age since then thanks to the Romans--but there arent even twenty important ones? And many of the variances--man, if not all?--have been reasoned out pretty exhaustively i think.
I really dislike speaking about this because it gets too complicated.

God did not sit down and write the N.T.
He only inspired it. If someone doesn't know what inspired means, they should find out.

Somebody sat down and wrote the gospels...maybe the first one about 25 to 30 years after jesus died. So how much did they remember?

Now some church or other wanted a copy of that original letter/gospel.
How did they make copies back then? I leave it to everyone to figure it out.

So now humans are involved.
Do humans ever make mistakes?

The first copy we find of a gospel is from, I think, 150 AD.
130 years after Jesus died.

Use your imagination.

That's all I have to say on this.

I do want to add that there are thousands of "mistakes" in the N.T....
but none change the gospel message.
 
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GodsGrace

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and if you would, could you splain why you believe this? No copies of the originals? Scholars--even atheist scholars, with no axe to grind, who dont believe the Bible--will attest that the confidence model is pretty hard to deny, GG.
I agree.
 

GodsGrace

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If that is true why do you bother? According to your above comments you don't believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
Please don't put words in my mouth.

I believe it more than some on this forum.
Anyway, I don't trust my salvation to the bible

I TRUST MY SALVATION TO JESUS.
Some people think the bible IS GOD.
 

GodsGrace

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@BreadOfLife

Re: post no. 309

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Yes. I see the big, bolded LIE word up there. Is this because I said I'd stop speaking to you the moment you called me a liar?
LOL
I've changed my mind.
Because YOU are the one that needs to be exposed.
YOU are the one that needs to go away because no one listens to you anyway.

All you can do is call persons names as you hide in your home and read BOOKS.
ABOUT catholicism,,,without experiencing it.





WHO IS TALKING ABOUT ANNULMENT???
You do have a difficult time even understanding WHAT IS BEING DEBATED HERE.

YOU challenged me to an intelligent conversation...remember?
It seems you are UNABLE to actually have one.

WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING ANNULMENT---
which I did explain for those reading along in post 139...to which you NEVER replied.



WE ARE DISCUSSING WHETHER OR NOT A CHURCH DOCTRINE HAS BEEN CHANGED.
We are NOT discussing annulment. And, in case you haven't noticed, there are many catholics that have been DIVORCED and have remarried civilly because the CC DOES NOT ALLOW remarriage. So they are living in MORTAL SIN.

Answer this please:
Before Amoris Laetitia, which I have posted at least twice, were remarrieds ALLOWED TO RECEIVE THE BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS?

After Amoris Laetitia are remarrieds ALLOWED TO REVEIVE THE BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS?

You might remember the furior when Pope Francis phone a woman in Argentina and PERSONALLY told her she could receive communion even though she had remarried...

Here is the news from about 3 years ago, confirming the above:

Pope Francis 'tells sinner she should be allowed Communion'
In apparent break from Catholic teaching, Pope is said to have phoned remarried Argentine Jacqui Lisbona to say 'nothing wrong' in her taking Holy Communion

source: Pope Francis 'tells sinner she should be allowed Communion'

SO, CAN YOU STILL SAY THAT NOTHING HAS CHANGED???

The answer to my questions is:
NO, before remarrieds could NOT receive communion.
YES, after Amoris Laetitia remarrids CAN receive communion.

THIS IS A BIG CHANGE TO WHICH MANY BISHOPS AND CARDINALS ARE AGAINST.





Giving the BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS to one in MORTAL SIN...
is NOT a doctrinal matter?

Maybe you should read CATHOLICISM FOR DUMMIES again....

Fortunately for me,,,I'm a bit beyond that.

Perhaps you should read the following:
It states that Pope Franicis STATED THAT THIS IS A MATTER OF MAGESTERIUM.....

The bishops of Buenos Aires issued guidelines for priests concerning the implementation of Amoris laetitia in September 2016. The Buenos Aires guidelines state, "When the concrete circumstances of a couple make it feasible, especially when both are Christians with a path of faith, the commitment to live in continence can be proposed." The guidelines continue, "In other more complex circumstances, and when a declaration of nullity could not be obtained, the aforementioned option may not be in fact feasible. However, a path of discernment is also possible. If it is recognized that, in a specific case, there are limitations that mitigate liability and guilt (see 301 - 302), particularly when a person considers that he would fall on a further fault damaging the children of the new union, Amoris laetitia opens the possibility of access to the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist (see notes 336 and 351)."[29]

Pope Francis approved the Buenos Aires guidelines in a letter dated 5 September 2016, stating, "The writing is very good and explicitly the meaning of chapter VIII of Amoris laetitia. There are no other interpretations."[29]

In December 2017, both the Buenos Aires guidelines and Pope Francis' letter of approval were published in the October 2016 edition of the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, followed by a statement by Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin that Pope Francis had decreed that both documents be promulgated as authentic magisterium.[30]

source: Amoris laetitia - Wikipedia

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


BUMP.

So?
Do you give up?
If not, I'm expecting a reply.
I'm expecting you to show me how nothing has changed in the catholic church....
Which YOU claimed nothing IMPORTANT changed.

Would YOU say giving the EUCHARIST to persons in known MORTAL SIN
is an important change in the church?
 
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aspen

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possibly one of their chief functions, yeh? To provide an opposer for ppl to fight? Lol

Americans love to fight shadowy dark forces so we spend a lot of time constructing bogiemen and conspiracy theories.

Atheists are funny.....they think the scariest thing that Christians face is the possibility that God doesn’t exist ....... instead, try exposing their conspiracy theories and get your popcorn
 
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bbyrd009

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So how much did they remember?
this tells me you still believe you are reading literal history, and imo hidden from the wise prolly doesnt work like that? The surface story is imo rarely--sometimes prolly, but--the real story, in Scripture. Or say strictly milk anyway. Now i guess i should rather never eat meat again rather than offend etcetc, but i justify that to irl as i would rather be offended here if at all possible myself, as thats how i know i'm prolly wrong but my point is they did not have to remember anything, most likely.

i know thats maybe a big bite to take, but for an example there was then extant a large camp of Jews in Cyrene, and the Simon of Cyrene Incident might be perceived as the Jews there giving their blessing to the NT, broadly speaking, the literal verbal exchange actually pointing to this in an interesting "naive" way that really almost cant be explained in words, how one is supposed to take it. Picture understanding "stay here for the present" one way v the other, only this one has another dimension, a pointer like thing in it. Man, i forget how i saw it, there was a study, and someone suggested trying diff roles...oh ya, imagine Simon saying his lines as a four year old, what a four year old would mean by them. Might not be your thing right now, but ya. There isnt an accidental word in Scripture imo, all the apparent contradictions are installed on purpose i think
 

bbyrd009

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Americans love to fight shadowy dark forces so we spend a lot of time constructing bogiemen and conspiracy theories.

Atheists are funny.....they think the scariest thing that Christians face is the possibility that God doesn’t exist ....... instead, try exposing their conspiracy theories and get your popcorn
ah, i'm kinda following, i guess as you know i do not believe that God "exists" in the manner that we define that term or God for that matter...um, you mean their conspiracy theories in what venue, religious or political there?
 
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BreadOfLife

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Yes. I see the big, bolded LIE word up there. Is this because I said I'd stop speaking to you the moment you called me a liar?
LOL
I've changed my mind.
Because YOU are the one that needs to be exposed.
YOU are the one that needs to go away because no one listens to you anyway.

All you can do is call persons names as you hide in your home and read BOOKS.
ABOUT catholicism,,,without experiencing it.


WHO IS TALKING ABOUT ANNULMENT???
You do have a difficult time even understanding WHAT IS BEING DEBATED HERE.

YOU challenged me to an intelligent conversation...remember?
It seems you are UNABLE to actually have one.

WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING ANNULMENT---
which I did explain for those reading along in post 139...to which you NEVER replied.



WE ARE DISCUSSING WHETHER OR NOT A CHURCH DOCTRINE HAS BEEN CHANGED.
We are NOT discussing annulment. And, in case you haven't noticed, there are many catholics that have been DIVORCED and have remarried civilly because the CC DOES NOT ALLOW remarriage. So they are living in MORTAL SIN.

Answer this please:
Before Amoris Laetitia, which I have posted at least twice, were remarrieds ALLOWED TO RECEIVE THE BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS?

After Amoris Laetitia are remarrieds ALLOWED TO REVEIVE THE BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS?

You might remember the furior when Pope Francis phone a woman in Argentina and PERSONALLY told her she could receive communion even though she had remarried...

Here is the news from about 3 years ago, confirming the above:

Pope Francis 'tells sinner she should be allowed Communion'
In apparent break from Catholic teaching, Pope is said to have phoned remarried Argentine Jacqui Lisbona to say 'nothing wrong' in her taking Holy Communion

source: Pope Francis 'tells sinner she should be allowed Communion'

SO, CAN YOU STILL SAY THAT NOTHING HAS CHANGED???

The answer to my questions is:
NO, before remarrieds could NOT receive communion.
YES, after Amoris Laetitia remarrids CAN receive communion.

THIS IS A BIG CHANGE TO WHICH MANY BISHOPS AND CARDINALS ARE AGAINST.





Giving the BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS to one in MORTAL SIN...
is NOT a doctrinal matter?

Maybe you should read CATHOLICISM FOR DUMMIES again....

Fortunately for me,,,I'm a bit beyond that.

Perhaps you should read the following:
It states that Pope Franicis STATED THAT THIS IS A MATTER OF MAGESTERIUM.....

The bishops of Buenos Aires issued guidelines for priests concerning the implementation of Amoris laetitia in September 2016. The Buenos Aires guidelines state, "When the concrete circumstances of a couple make it feasible, especially when both are Christians with a path of faith, the commitment to live in continence can be proposed." The guidelines continue, "In other more complex circumstances, and when a declaration of nullity could not be obtained, the aforementioned option may not be in fact feasible. However, a path of discernment is also possible. If it is recognized that, in a specific case, there are limitations that mitigate liability and guilt (see 301 - 302), particularly when a person considers that he would fall on a further fault damaging the children of the new union, Amoris laetitia opens the possibility of access to the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist (see notes 336 and 351)."[29]

Pope Francis approved the Buenos Aires guidelines in a letter dated 5 September 2016, stating, "The writing is very good and explicitly the meaning of chapter VIII of Amoris laetitia. There are no other interpretations."[29]

In December 2017, both the Buenos Aires guidelines and Pope Francis' letter of approval were published in the October 2016 edition of the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, followed by a statement by Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin that Pope Francis had decreed that both documents be promulgated as authentic magisterium.[30]

source: Amoris laetitia - Wikipedia
I have explained this to you, ad nauseam, and you don’t seem to be able to grasp it – but your ENTIRE argument about whether or not remarried people or ANYBODY else can receive communion is a matter of DISCIPLINE – not doctrine.

Your insistence on my giving you an answer to your question is stupid because NOT every case is the same. HOWEVER- - IF the Pope declare tomorrow that ALL divorced and remarried people were allowed to receive communion – this would STILL be a matter of discipline and NOT doctrine.

The matters surrounding marriage are doctrinal.

The matters surrounding what should be withheld from divorced people is DISCIPLINE.

Hopefully this sinks in this time.
If not – I can suggest the names of a few good, competent therapists . . .
 

bbyrd009

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How did they make copies back then? I leave it to everyone to figure it out.
? why? no one has to do this, we are aware of how copies were made, and i might reiterate here that the law of sin and death was literal then, a deliberate mis-copy would get you killed, pseudo-epigraphs were only disseminated anonymously, and the strictures on becoming a scribe--virtually a priest--and the scrutiny that every copy underwent before being declared acceptable was beyond extreme, puts our current copyediting practices to absolute shame, even for current non-fiction, even with computer progs to help, somehow.

A bevy of other priests proofread each copy, and the virtual absence of copyedit flaws speaks for itself, gg

you'd think with progs we would be pretty flawless in our copyediting now, huh? But i tell you that its confidence index is 3 magnitudes lower than the Bible's, on a good day