Romans 2:29 to put it better the Jew here means Gods people who are much like water baptised under the tribe or unity under God.
Well, personally I'd submit that the bible 'puts it the best'. And, I think the passage is more or less discussing whether or not a person can consider themselves saved; yes, a 'people of God'. And Paul is clear that it's not by following the external commands of the law, but in having a heartfelt change deep within, something only really affected by the Holy Spirit.
I think in this, we more or less agree; the people of current National Israel, are just people. They are not 'the people of God', for that designation only belongs to those in Christ.
However, the bigger question seems to be; do we therefore image we should or could just label them as gentile unbelievers, or does the bible still seem to separate 'unbelieving' people into two categories; Jew and Gentile. It's true that division is broken down once people are IN Christ, but outside of it? And if therefore, the bible
does speak of this distinction, do we then go on to read Rom 11 in a light that suggests God still has a plan or purpose for that distinct, if unbelieving at present, people group?
8:11 you have lost me as to the point, fact is that the body of Christ = the Church and Israel are the same in fact as Christ is the King of Israel regardless be it the lead astray Jews who don't follow or not, just because one rejects such a fact does not change the fact does it.
Romans Chapters 9 (not 8, sorry, typo) to 11, speak TO Christian believers; the Church. But it speaks to them ABOUT Israel. Now, while we can take a step back and plot out biblically that the Church has been grafted onto the Olive tree and is now sharing the same space as Elect, remnant Israel, there is still, within the text, a clear distinction between the Church, and the 'Israel' that Paul is speaking about. The 'Israel' Paul is speaking to the believers about are those who are in unbelief and who have been broken off the tree. It is their hardening that has marched God's purposes foward to the Gentile nation, and, Paul tells us, from the jealousy of that very mission, that 'Israel' will be provoked and 'saved'.
Now...say what you want, and feel free to interpret it differently, but in a literary sense, there is no way the 'Israel' Paul is speaking about in these passages, can be considered to be either the Church, or the believing Jews within the Church (which are still just church members anyway). The only way the passage can be read with any kind of logical understanding is if Paul is diferentiating between the people of God (the Church) and unbelieving Jews. Which, in my opinion, makes them still a people group. Even if they are currently in unbelief. Otherwise Paul would have, as he 'broke down the wall of division' within the Church, between Jews and Gentiles, would have instead broke down the wall separating the Jews and Gentiles who are in unbelief. In short, what we'd have would be 'believers' and 'unbelievers'. If this is the case, it's strange, is it not, that Paul spends 3 whole Chapters speaking about unbelieving Jews?
11:11 Jealous ? it must be understood here in a good sense.
Well, understanding it in a biblical sense would have us understanding that God would like to provoke in them a flame for him and only him through Christ Jesus, shouldn't we think?
We could also look at a previous verse that hints at it too:
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, -Romans 11:7
You have a whole nation of people who have an incredible history with God. And through all of it, their very longing has been for Messiah to come. Now, they missed him, and in their 'trespass' God took the gospel to the Gentiles. But now we have something that they don't. Most of them think we're blasphemers, but every now and then what we have provokes someone to look at Christ, look at their own prophecies that speak of Messiah.
I believe that Rom 11 speaks about that in larger numbers.
11:20-25 The gifts and the call of God are without repentance; this statement must be understood, in the light of the context, of the gifts mentioned in 9:4 especially of the gift of being the chosen people. The Jews remain the people of God's predilection, and will eventually be converted and saved. that's eventually ? not now as they are under a curse because all who reject Jesus Christ are in fact Anti-Christ to be sure and anyone who says otherwise is of Satan.
So, firstly, I don't believe I have, in any way, suggested that the Jewish people are saved or 'God's chosen people' now. And yes, I do happen to think that those Christians who think the Nation of Israel can do no wrong and must still function under the label of 'God's chosen people' are, in fact, mistaken. But it is a long, long way from mistaken to 'of Satan and is Anti-Christ'. Because the bible specifically tells us what 'anti-Christ' is, and they are those who deny Jesus has come in the flesh, from God and is the Christ. So, while these people are mistaken on some theological issues, I have not heard a single one of them deny these things. They are not antichrist. And to be perfectly blunt, trying to woo someone to see doctrine differently then they do, with reason and scripture, is never going to get anywhere if you start the conversation by telling them they are 'of Satan'.
Look Israel never went anywhere as that Tree still stands in Christ Jesus in fact as he is the King, it's only that others are lead astray and 2000 years ago most Jews were lead astray and missed the boat so to speak. Jesus disciples never were broken off were they ! why do so many goyim dismiss them, they are true Israelites they were not broken off at all, they were the beginning founders of the Church in Christ Jesus and you goyim think that it's a goyim Christ and that the Israelites are outside of you, but that is clearly not the case as who do you think the disciples are ? they are Israelites who knew Jesus was the Christ their King.
Who's discounting the disciples? Who's saying that the unbelieving Jews weren't led astray?
One can quite easily trace the elect, 'true believers' of Israel all the way back from Abraham to Christ, all the while acknowledging that there were Jews even then who fell away from God. And they can do it just as easily in the NT, where the unbelievers are still being cut off the tree and believers, Gentiles now, are being grafted in. But that still leaves, from the bibles own voice, the option of those branches being grafted back in. Of unbelieving Jews coming to Christ.
Look most Jews were lost but not all in fact and where would Christianity of been without them disciples hey ? just because the ones who were lead astray are rattled on about, who cares about them, when the times comes they will come home. just like the prodigal Son. they are blighted fools who will not be worthy of God until they come to Christ Jesus, fact is that apart from that they are only a Curse because they are lost as to God.
'who cares about them'? As I said before, as they are
human beings, we ought to! And we know God does. How can you so easily or callously dismiss a nation of people as not needing to know about Christ? Doesn't it rend your heart just a little bit that they are SO CLOSE to the truth? They don't worship Allah or Budda or some outrageously false god. They call on the real God of the bible...but without Jesus it still doesn't matter! Doesn't that make you ache for them just a little bit?
Because if it doesn't, maybe you should just go back and read the parts of scripture that speaks about how we are to act/think/behave around unbelievers full stop. And how God loves them even as he holds them under judgement. We must never stop praying for them until their, or our, end. And that goes for everyone.
A Christian does not idolise fools, not to mention any Anti-Christ, as how stupid could one be to do so and that is only a new age concept that has come about in the last 20 years or so, that's getting out of hand idolising so called Jews, it's madness and it's a work of Satan.
Mmmm, that's right. Call em idolizing fools of Satan. That'll help change their mind. I'm sure that when you point to scripture now they'll be intent on listening to your lesson.