GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT

[stunnedbygrace]

That's me for my reading ability is slowed when I have to concentrate to make out the fine print...so I routinely I increase the font size on each of my posts.


I simply had it too easy in elementary school where nothing was a challenge. In high school work was required so unless I was interested I did not do what was required and finished with mediocre grades. My first try at college I did worse and dropped out less than half way through the first semester. After a couple of years working in concrete, I joined the Army [1963]...


I spent my first year in the army in basic training and Microwave Radio Repair school. From there I was sent to South Viet Nam for a year and then 6 months in the Dominican Republic. When I got out I was ready for college again, but my GI bill only paid me $160.00 a month. I worked in concrete again between classes and on weekends to cover my expenses. I rode a bicycle to classes and lived at home with my mother so food was not a problem.


I started out in natural sciences and ended up with a degree in Spanish Literature with a Minor in German. I was in Mexico City beginning post graduate work and returned to California at Christmas time and met my wife to be... Instead of continuing school, I married her and went to work... concrete, limousine driving and finally with the Social Security Administration. I retired early in 2000.

No politics for me ever.


We've been there and done that, haven't we and now, at least, for me, my life is the Lord and my wife, in that order.



Some people it seems are more interested in winning debates than in other things more essential to living for God, at least as I see it.

Nice to have you here on the forum.

This made me laugh a little. No matter what you did, you kept winding up back in concrete again!

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hey, does anyone have any spiritual gifs to impart to this thread? (you know those internet pictures)

This isn't a spiritual gift but it is an unexplained miracle....if you care to watch it...about 5 minutes long.
bible producing oil youtube - Yahoo Video Search Results

 

[marksman]

Ok. That explains things little better then. And yes, I am not always as "hidden" as I should be. If you can take a small piece of advice, pray and ask Him to empower you not to overreact and jump to conclusions on people so easily, though. I've had other autistics do it with me and in some cases it kinda ruined our friendship. I meant nothing wrong, but what I said was taken so badly that by the time they were through ripping me up one side and down the other it had changed the relationship for good, whether we liked it or not.

About this thread, I was simply posting a different point of view. Then your response seemed to contradict the OP, so I was trying to clarify. That got met with... what came off as a pretty resentful response. I wasn't the only one who took the lead sentence in your OP as a blanket statement, given it had no qualifier, but a simple explanation would have been fine. It's not like I was heavily invested or anything, just making conversation.

Anyway, no harm. But don't let your autism hamper the effectiveness of your calling. Step back from posts when you're interpreting things as confrontational, and wait for the Holy Spirit to tell you what to write and when. I'm trying to do the same.

Blessings. We'll have some better talks in the future.

I am quite used to people telling me how to behave and what to do. However, being autistic means that I can only do what the disability allows me to do. As you want me to do this that and the other I cannot if my autistic brain refuses to comply. Autism puts you in a prison so all the bright ideas under the sun are pointless as I can only do what I am allowed to do.

Marksman and Marksman 1 are the same person and until I can find out how to delete marksman 1 I shall have to double up.

 

[marksman]

Marksman: "Generally, prophecy can be seen throughout scripture in various forms. As we know the birth of Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament (see Isaiah specifically) and other passages of scripture.
The word prophesy in Greek is propheteia and simply means prediction. A person predicts what is going to happen. For it to be prophesy, it needs to come by the revelation of the Holy Spirit as there is no way of knowing apart from that."

No, though prophets do predict the future, so do other gifts and genres like "the word of knowledge" or apocalyptic. The central part of the prophet's function is to exercise divine jurisdiction over the conditions of divine forgiveness and redemptive security. Put differently, a prophet's primary role is to address this question: Is a church's apparent spirituality truly a manifestation of the inward spiritual reality? There is a widespread consensus for this conception of "prophecy" in the early church and the Judaism of late antiquity. It took me 452 pages to track down all these explications of the gift in my Harvard doctoral thesis, which was recommended for publication, but I never published it because editors thought it was too highly technical for a popular audience.

You can see this conception of prophecy in Paul's description in 1 Cor 14:24-25 of the exercise of this gift in church. The "secrets of the visitor's heart are laid bare" and he is "called to account" by the prophetic word, so that he realizes God is speaking and he needs to repent. Each of the 7 letters in Revelation fit the pattern of a widespread prophetic speech form and they fulfill the role of prophecy by exposing the true condition of each church and instructing them on what they must do to retain their redemptive securityl

marksman: "Just a note. Prophecy does not have to be all charismatic and emotional. it can be one person talking to another or a person talking to a group and even a written instruction."

In my dissertion on this gift I trace the unique application of the above definition in the 4 major regions surrounding the Mediterranean. For example, in Egypt and North Africa in the first 3 Christian centuries, the emphasis was placed on prophetic insight or discernment rather than on ecstatic prophetic speech. In most areas early Christians believed in the prophethood of all believers and the OT prooftexts for the democratization of this gift were Numbers 11:29 for early Egyptian and North African Christianity and Joel 2:28 elsewhere. Paul's wish that every believer would prophesy echoes Moses' wish that "all the Lord's people were prophets and that He would put His Spirit on them (11:29 alluded to in 1 Cor 14:5)." The ancient rabbis claimed that Moses' wish would be fulfilled when the Messiah comes. So Christians applied this rabbinic view to the availability of the prophetic charism for every believer. btw, Paul has his eye on Numbers 11-12 also in 1 Cor. 13:12, which alludes to the Septuagint version of Numbers 12:7-8.

 

[marksman]

Marksman: "Generally, prophecy can be seen throughout scripture in various forms. As we know the birth of Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament (see Isaiah specifically) and other passages of scripture.
The word prophesy in Greek is propheteia and simply means prediction. A person predicts what is going to happen. For it to be prophesy, it needs to come by the revelation of the Holy Spirit as there is no way of knowing apart from that."

No, though prophets do predict the future, so do other gifts and genres like "the word of knowledge" or apocalyptic. The central part of the prophet's function is to exercise divine jurisdiction over the conditions of divine forgiveness and redemptive security. Put differently, a prophet's primary role is to address this question: Is a church's apparent spirituality truly a manifestation of the inward spiritual reality? There is a widespread consensus for this conception of "prophecy" in the early church and the Judaism of late antiquity. It took me 452 pages to track down all these explications of the gift in my Harvard doctoral thesis, which was recommended for publication, but I never published it because editors thought it was too highly technical for a popular audience.

You can see this conception of prophecy in Paul's description in 1 Cor 14:24-25 of the exercise of this gift in church. The "secrets of the visitor's heart are laid bare" and he is "called to account" by the prophetic word, so that he realizes God is speaking and he needs to repent. Each of the 7 letters in Revelation fit the pattern of a widespread prophetic speech form and they fulfill the role of prophecy by exposing the true condition of each church and instructing them on what they must do to retain their redemptive securityl

marksman: "Just a note. Prophecy does not have to be all charismatic and emotional. it can be one person talking to another or a person talking to a group and even a written instruction."

In my dissertion on this gift I trace the unique application of the above definition in the 4 major regions surrounding the Mediterranean. For example, in Egypt and North Africa in the first 3 Christian centuries, the emphasis was placed on prophetic insight or discernment rather than on ecstatic prophetic speech. In most areas early Christians believed in the prophethood of all believers and the OT prooftexts for the democratization of this gift were Numbers 11:29 for early Egyptian and North African Christianity and Joel 2:28 elsewhere. Paul's wish that every believer would prophesy echoes Moses' wish that "all the Lord's people were prophets and that He would put His Spirit on them (11:29 alluded to in 1 Cor 14:5)." The ancient rabbis claimed that Moses' wish would be fulfilled when the Messiah comes. So Christians applied this rabbinic view to the availability of the prophetic charism for every believer. btw, Paul has his eye on Numbers 11-12 also in 1 Cor. 13:12, which alludes to the Septuagint version of Numbers 12:7-8.

1Co 12:28 First, God chose some people to be apostles and prophets and teachers for the church. But he also chose some to work miracles or heal the sick or help others or be leaders or speak different kinds of languages.

1Co 12:29 Not everyone is an apostle. Not everyone is a prophet. Not everyone is a teacher. Not everyone can work miracles.

Eph 4:11 And indeed He gave some to be apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;

I guess these verses are self explanatory. (marksman = marksman1)

 

[marksman]

There is a difference between a calling and a gift of the Holy Spirit...Gifts of the Holy Spirit are supernatural manifestations of His power through His chosen vessels.
Some of the things you list here are callings not gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The nine gifts I am dealing with are gifts, not callings. (marksman1 = marksman)

 

[marksman]

I disagree with you that the ministry positions are the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. People are called into ministry like when Jesus called out to the disciples and said "Follow me"....the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is given to us no matter what our position in the church is. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to whomever He has chosen to operate and manifest His power through.

Ministry gifts in Ephesians 4:11 are gifts of the risen Christ, not the Holy Spirit. (marksman = marksman1)

 

[marksman]

Jesus never referred to Jezebel as a religious spirit though.

Rev_2:20 But I have a few things against you, that you allow the woman Jezebel to teach, she saying herself to be a prophetess, and to cause My slaves to go astray, and to commit fornication, and to eat idol sacrifices.

This verse is showing that there was a Jezebel spirit in the church and was directly dealt with by John. if this is the word of God, regardless of whether Jesus spoke of her is not relevant. It is in his word inspired by the Holy Spirit.

If we only pay attention to what Jesus said, we will have to delete large parcels of the New Testament. (marksman = marksman1)

 

[Enoch111]

(marksman = marksman1)

Looks like an upgrade. Now you will have no excuse for missing the mark.

 

[Enoch111]

Ministry gifts in Ephesians 4:11 are gifts of the risen Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

That is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding. So you missed the mark already.

The Risen Christ sent down the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, but it is the Spirit Himself who gives EVERY SPIRITUAL GIFT. And to prove that your conclusion is incorrect, we will look at just two spiritual gifts:

EPH 4:11 -- And He [Christ] gave some, apostles; and some, prophets...

1 COR 12:28 -- And God [the Holy Spirit] hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets... (this chapter is all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit).

 

[marksman]

That is a misinterpretation or misunderstanding. So you missed the mark already.

The Risen Christ sent down the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, but it is the Spirit Himself who gives EVERY SPIRITUAL GIFT. And to prove that your conclusion is incorrect, we will look at just two spiritual gifts:

EPH 4:11 -- And He [Christ] gave some, apostles; and some, prophets...

1 COR 12:28 -- And God [the Holy Spirit] hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets... (this chapter is all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit).

Ephesians 4:11 is the appropriate verse..
Eph 4:7 But to each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Because of this, He says, "Having gone up on high, He led captivity captive," and gave "gifts to men." Psa. 68:18
Eph 4:9 But that He went up, what is it except that He also first came down into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that came down is the same who also went up above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
Eph 4:11 And indeed He gave some to be apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 with a view to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,

"He" is Jesus Christ.

1Co 12:28 And God placed some in the assembly: firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers; then works of power; then gifts of healing, helps, governings, kinds of languages.

No mention of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Enoch111]

No mention of the Holy Spirit.

Did you read the entire chapter before arriving at that erroneous conclusion?

1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant...

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal...

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit...

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit...

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit...

As you can see Marksman1 missed his mark SEVEN TIMES. Now it remains to be seen whether he will admit that he is a poor marksman, or continue to keep missing his mark.

 

[marksman]

The next gift that is mentioned is the discerning of spirits. This is quite a wide-ranging one. The basis Greek word is pneuma which means breath as opposed to ruach, which has a stronger connotation to it. Pneuma tends to be more gentle so it does need more discernment. The meaning of the word, in this case, is a judicial estimation. The meaning of this is relating to courts of law or judges. : ordered or done by a court. : responsible for dealing with all legal cases involving the government.

Christians often claim that we are not to judge people but the discerning of spirits makes us judges. In that sense, we are not judging the person. We are judging the spirit that is controlling the person. If a church does not have anyone who can discern a spirit, it is going to be led up all sorts of garden paths. The discerning of spirits gives us a judicial role in determining what is right and wrong. In other words, we sit in judgment on the situation and proclaim what God has said through the discernment he has given us by the Spirit.

It is one violently opposed by the world because in general people do not want to be told what to do or what is right or wrong. They would rather do things that are right in their own eyes. Another word for it is rebellion.

The spirits referred to in this case is manifest as a current of air. Or in other words, they are not physical. They can be manifest as an angel; a demon; Christ's Spirit or the Holy Spirit.

I was in a meeting at a conference and there were about 10,000 in attendance. During the worship, I felt the Holy Spirit descend into the building and that verse which says that he inhabits the praises of his people came to mind. There was no doubt he was doing just that as the atmosphere changed dramatically and the praise became very powerful.

One can discern the presence of an angel and not necessarily see him but in some cases, people have seen angels. If you do, do not be surprised. Thousands of Muslims have been converted because they were visited by an angel who they saw.

In addition, one can be visited by the Spirit of Christ and this again has been a regular feature of Muslims being converted to Christ. Their interest in Christianity has been piqued and whilst asleep a man has appeared in their bedroom and spoken to them and when they have told a Christian about this event they have been told that it was Christ appearing to them.

The other presence one can know about through discernment is a satanic demon. I have come across this guy on several occasions who can easily fool us as he masquerades as an angel of light as the scripture tells us. In this case, we really have to watch out for his presence as he will lead believers astray with his lies. (He is incapable of telling the truth).

In the west, hundreds of churches have been duped by him through homosexuality. Rather than seeing it as sin they see it something to be embraced and accepted. Definitely a work of a satanic spirit.

Another one is a demonic spirit of pride. Have you noticed how some pastors are given pride of place and are to be adored and adulated? How do you know if your pastor has succumbed to that one? One easy way to find out is if he has a reserved parking spot next to the church door.

As Satan is fooling people as an angel of light through things like yoga, pilates, new age ideology, veganism, tattoos, pseudo cults some of whom are aligned with pentecostal denominations this gift is invaluable and will be needed more and more so as not to be fooled by satan's lies and actions.

When they are fooled they will not take kindly to you pointing out that they have been fooled but truth is truth regardless of what others think about it.

One way Satan has fooled the political progressives for want of a better term is that which they call "hate speech." It is nothing more than speech they hate because it is the truth.

So my messages is to keep your spiritual antenna up and discern what you see and hear so that you can sort out the good from the bad.

This is from marksman who is marksman1 at the moment until I can get it changed.

 

[marksman]

Did you read the entire chapter before arriving at that erroneous conclusion?

1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant...

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit...

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal...

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit...

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit...

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit...

As you can see Marksman1 missed his mark SEVEN TIMES. Now it remains to be seen whether he will admit that he is a poor marksman, or continue to keep missing his mark.

You are confused as you brought up Ephesians 4:11. What you have quoted is not Ephesians 4:11. Did you read the right chapter before you came to your erroneous conclusion?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Secessionists believe there are about TWENTY THREE gifts of the Spirit. Three of those were to definitely come to an end after the apostles passed on and the Bible was completed. Also there were several sign gifts ("the signs of an apostle") limited to the apostolic period and for the apostles and their companions.

However there are many other gifts to be looked at and used.

GIFTS WHICH HAD TO CEASE
1. Apostles
2. Prophets
3. Tongues
4. Interpretation of tongues
5. Knowledge (supernatural)

SIGN GIFTS WHICH CEASED
6. Healers (healings)
7. Miracle workers (signs, wonders, mighty deeds)
8. Serpent handling
9. Drinking poison

GIFTS DURING THE CHURCH AGE
10. Evangelists
11. Pastors
12. Teachers
13. Helpers (Helps)
14. Governments (Ruling)
15. Words of wisdom
16. Words of knowledge
17. Faith
18. Ministry (service)
19. Exhortation
20. Liberality (Christian giving)
21. Shewing mercy
22. Discerning of spirits
23. Casting out demons (exorcism)

Unscriptural carnal opinion

 

[CharismaticLady]

I have been moved to 6 of the 9 gifts listed...as the Spirit leads. It goes by availability I think.

Yes, for me, 7

 

[Pearl]

Yes, for me, 7

Apart from the ones listed in scripture I believe that God can bestow other gifts on us too. There are spiritual gifts with I don't think can be added to but then there are other 'gifts' some of which maybe would be better described as skills or talents which we can use in his service, such as the craftsmen described in 2 Chronicles.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Apart from the ones listed in scripture I believe that God can bestow other gifts on us too. There are spiritual gifts with I don't think can be added to but then there are other 'gifts' some of which maybe would be better described as skills or talents which we can use in his service, such as the craftsmen described in 2 Chronicles.

And the dreams and visions of Joel 2, so that's 2 more. Also offices of Jesus in Ephesians 4, so 1 more.

 

[marksman]

Unscriptural carnal opinion

I don't know why you are posting this information as the thread is not concerned with these matters. It ONLY deals with the nine gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12.

 

[marksman]

And the dreams and visions of Joel 2, so that's 2 more. Also offices of Jesus in Ephesians 4, so 1 more.

But they are not the subject of this thread.