Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You have to GET ME TO SEE the basic truth that most people want to live and not die?
What does this have to do with anything?
Some people WANT to set themselves on fire
and HAVE set themselves on fire.
What you're saying is that we are NOT ABLE to make a FREE WILL DECISION.
You have NOT shown me where, when or how free will was taken away from us.
God gave us free will in the Garden.
He gave Adam a choice.
A choice requires free will.
When, where, or how was this free will taken away?
I DID answer you.
You apparently do not like my answers.
I said that some DO set themselves on fire because they WANT to.
View attachment 7141
If you want me to answer personally:
1. Yes, I'm free to immolate myself.
2. No, I do not want to.
I hope to find out what this means since MOST persons do not want to die burned....
Your explanation will be interesting since calvinism teaches that God does all the deciding for us.
According to calvinism, the man in the image above (a tibetan monk) set himself on fire because this is what God had determined for him.
Compatibilist free will:
Here is an incompatibilist argument that codifies the considerations set out above:
Libertarian free will:
- Any agent, x, performs an act a of x's own free will iff x has control over a.
- x has control over a only if x has the ability to select among alternative courses of action to act a.
- If x has the ability to select among alternative courses of action to act a, then there are alternative courses of action to act a open to x (i.e., x could have done otherwise than a).
Compatiblist Free Will:
source: Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
- If determinism is true, then only one future is possible given the actual past, and holding fixed the laws of nature.
- If only one future is possible holding fixed the actual past and the laws of nature, then there are no alternative courses of action to any act open to any agent (i.e., no agent could have done otherwise than she actually does).
- Therefore, if determinism is true, it is not the case that any agent, x, performs any act, a, of her own free will.[10]
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Compatibilism does not maintain that humans are free. Compatabilism does not hold that humans have free will.
Compatibilism holds that:
1) the thesis of determinism is true, and that accordingly all human behavior, voluntary or involuntary, like the behavior of all other things, arises from antecedent conditions, given which no other behavior is possible: all human behavior is caused and determined
2)voluntary behavior is nonetheless free to the extent that it is not externally constrained or impeded
3) the causes of voluntary behavior are certain states, events, or conditions within the agent: acts of will or volitions, choices, decisions, desires etc...
Compatibilism is NOT a position that combines the libertarian and determinist positions.
Compatibilismis NOT a compromise of the two other positions.
Compatibilism is NOT a position that holds that humans are "a little bit" free.
Compatibilism is NOT a position that holds that humans have "limited free will".
Compatibilism is NOT a position that holds that humans have some free will.
Compatibilism is determinism with a slight modification for the sake of appearances and for our language use. It is a position taken because of the perceived need to have some idea of accountability or responsibility for human behavior.
source: Compatibilism
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
If YOU have a different explanation for compatibilism, perhaps you can explain YOUR understanding of it.
I'm not sure what his final point will be; but I believe if we love enough, we give up some of our free will because our fate in intertwined with others. Love is a sacrifice of a part of self. Thus the husband who loves his wife does not feel free to commit adultery since he could not bear to cause her pain.People want to live and not die?
THIS is what you were getting at?
One doesn't have to be a psychiatrist to know that MOST PERSONS want to live and not die.
Now you want to discuss WHY?
What does this have to do with free will?
How many more posts will it take to get to your FINAL POINT?
I asked you twice and here were your responses:
First response ...
Second response to the question ...
Does it sound from your responses that you reached the conclusion that people do not want to die, or does it sound like you want to argue about Calvinism?
He said he had chosen his disciples.What Jesus did not say was that he had chosen all, yet only a few listen and respond.
You quoted Romans 8:20 with no explanation.
Some persons do this...I guess some here could read minds, but I cannot.
I wanted to know if you were saying that GOD SUBJECTED NATURE to the sin nature.
So I guess I have to assume that this is what you're saying..
IF IT IS...
then you have misunderstood this verse.
The fall of Adam subjected the following to the EFFECTS of the fall:
Man's relationship with God
Man's relationship with other men
Man's relationship with himself
Man's relationship with nature
Nature also suffers from the EFFECTS of the fall.
THIS IS NOT WHAT GOD WANTED....but what came about because Adam had FREE WILL, just as we still have free will today since it was not taken away from our attributes.
See Genesis 3:17
The ground has been cursed BECAUSE OF YOU...because of Adam...
thorns and thistles it will grow.
Just as in any covenant, there were curses and blessings depending on HOW man obeyed the covenant....Here we see the curses being declared by God.
So nature did not WANT to be cursed,,,but alas, due to Adam's sin it did become cursed...as were A and E, and their relationship with each other, and their relationship with God.
In this regard consider the position of Jesus:……………………………...
I said that some DO set themselves on fire because they WANT to.
If you want me to answer personally:
1. Yes, I'm free to immolate myself.
2. No, I do not want to.
I hope to find out what this means since MOST persons do not want to die burned....
I'm not sure what his final point will be; but I believe if we love enough, we give up some of our free will because our fate in intertwined with others. Love is a sacrifice of a part of self. Thus the husband who loves his wife does not feel free to commit adultery since he could not bear to cause her pain.
That is fine too. Every step forward spiritually means another piece of self is given up; and one feels less free to choose the wrong. It would be stupid to do that anyway. Free will is no longer seen as such a desirable thing.
How can anyone obey the commandment to be perfect? If he uses his free will to decide he'll try to do that, that means he's not free in a lot of other ways. In theory, he's still free; but in practice, he's not.
Is God free to lie? In theory, He has the power or ability to lie; but His Justice and Love would not permit it.
The issue is not whether free will is desirable or not, but whether in fact it is A FACT of life -- for both the saved and the unsaved.Free will is no longer seen as such a desirable thing.
I agree with you, but what you're saying has nothing to do with the loss of free will.I'm not sure what his final point will be; but I believe if we love enough, we give up some of our free will because our fate in intertwined with others. Love is a sacrifice of a part of self. Thus the husband who loves his wife does not feel free to commit adultery since he could not bear to cause her pain.
That is fine too. Every step forward spiritually means another piece of self is given up; and one feels less free to choose the wrong. It would be stupid to do that anyway. Free will is no longer seen as such a desirable thing.
How can anyone obey the commandment to be perfect? If he uses his free will to decide he'll try to do that, that means he's not free in a lot of other ways. In theory, he's still free; but in practice, he's not.
Is God free to lie? In theory, He has the power or ability to lie; but His Justice and Love would not permit it.
We've all felt this emptiness you speak of,,,if we're human.Sorry. I didn’t mean you should read minds...only that I wasn't sure myself what you were asking as I can not read your mind. You clarified here. Thank you. That is not what I read there...not saying anyone has to agree. But the whole topic in those passage in Romans 8 is: emptiness and Hope and the Sons of God Born from above.
“Was made subject to vanity.—“Vanity” = “emptiness” or “nothingness.” Creation is fulfilling an unworthy instead of a worthy and noble end. (Comp. Genesis 3:17-18.) It was made subject to this “not willingly,” i.e., by its own act or with its own concurrence, but “by reason of Him who hath subjected the same,” i.e., in pursuance of the sovereign purpose and counsel of God. The one thing which takes out the sting from this impoverished and degraded condition is Hope.”
Mankind cannot not be removed from “the creation” was subjected to vanity, not willingly...do you know of “emptiness”. Are you or have you been subjected to emptiness? It is shocking that not only the ground but also mankind was subjected to “emptiness” can be disputed. I guess anything is disputable. For me Romans 8:20 described with perfection the “emptiness” and vain pursuit of mankind to find something OR someone to fill that “emptiness.” This emptiness ...Ecclesiastes speaks of this “emptiness” well as does the Psalms ...the whole Word speaks of this “emptiness” man was subjected to unwillingly. Yes, the earth and world fully reflects this great “emptiness” “void” where mankind fully reveals openly mankind’s state without God ...which is cursed. Void. Empty. Unprofitable. We can not take man out of Romans 8:20 ...just because we do not like the taste of “not willingly”...did Adam and Eve ask for that tree to be there in the Garden. Who planted it? Who created it? In Job God says ...look, see my servant Job to satan ...do you think God did not know the serpent was speaking to Eve? We could get in a debate over it but ...you live in the World ...IS man subjected to “emptiness” and the bondage of death “not willingly”? From my own experience with “emptiness” and the bondage of corruption and death...there was no escape from the moment I was born out of wedlock of my natural mother...never having a true Father...I was indeed “empty.” “Void” Not willingly. no matter what vice I went to, no matter what I tried to use to FILL that emptiness...I was still void and dead inside...wasted. But there is Hope also in that verse. He said: blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall be FILLED. The original language there in Romans 8:20 has futility rather than vanity...coming to the knowledge of nothing. Futile. Pointless. A servant to death. All were “shut up” in this futile state of death and waste...emptiness...of nothingness ...until there was Hope revealed in Christ. God said: one must be born again from above. And God fills the emptiness.
I think you understand the situation precisely.I agree with you, but what you're saying has nothing to do with the loss of free will.
If I give up a part of myself to make everyone dinner for THEIR good, even if I feel tired...it is still my free will choice to make that dinner. I could have decided NOT TO.
No, and I struggle with the mentality of those who do. I ask myself if they have actively ever exercised free will themselves. There is a way of "operating on automatic" according to things people pre-program in their minds. People can become slaves of their own minds. Although they retain free will, they don't act as if they do and they don't believe they do. They might as well not have it.Free will just means having a choice between two choices...every choice will be affected in some way by an outside force...but a choice being AFFECTED is not the same as
compatible free will.
We usually choose according to our born again nature...
but what calvinists say is that GOD CHOOSES FOR US and makes us THINK it's our choice.
Do you lean toward calvinism?
Yes...in fact in theology free will means being able to make a moral choice that is not conditioned by outside forces.I see free will as the simple choice between my own way and God's Way. To really be saved so as to be always with God, a person must finally and completely give the reins of choice to God. No one normally does this all at once, unless it is at the very end of physical life as with the 'good' thief on the cross. The choices are in our hands while we have time left. True Repentance would give the reins to God, but when one decision is made correctly there will be another decision to be made. Again a Life or death decision to make is back in our hands and surrender must be repeated. Can a person every fully repent and stand by it until the end of his course?
Man alone in too many cases would not make the right decision because he cares too much for his own physical life, but then we are ask and receive [Matt 7:7].
I think we agree but have different ways of saying things.The issue is not whether free will is desirable or not, but whether in fact it is A FACT of life -- for both the saved and the unsaved.
1. The FACT that God expects a free response to the Gospel means that free will exists. Obedience to the Gospel and obedience to God's commandments are expected because free will exists.
2. The FACT that Christians must choose between God and self constantly and daily means that free will exists.
3. The FACT that God compels no one to be saved, but invites everyone to be saved means that free will exists.
One of the best illustrations in Scripture about the FACTUAL existence of free will is the Parable of the Wedding Feast.
MATTHEW 22
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. [FREE WILL]
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:[FREE WILL]
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. [FREE WILL]
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. [FREE WILL]
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: [FREE WILL]
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen*.
*Note: Those who are chosen (the elect) are the ones who have freely obeyed the Gospel, and are therefore given the robe of righteousness (the wedding garment), and may therefore be legitimately at the Marriage of the Lamb. Since ALL were invited to the Wedding Feast, there was also a wedding garment available for all. That is why the king justly asked "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?"
A, please stop.I asked you twice and here were your responses:
First response ...
Second response to the question ...
Does it sound from your responses that you reached the conclusion that people do not want to die, or does it sound like you want to argue about Calvinism?
I'm happy to hear this!I think you understand the situation precisely.
No, and I struggle with the mentality of those who do. I ask myself if they have actively ever exercised free will themselves. There is a way of "operating on automatic" according to things people pre-program in their minds. People can become slaves of their own minds. Although they retain free will, they don't act as if they do and they don't believe they do. They might as well not have it.
At first glance, this may look dull and unexciting; but God likes variety. Just look around. I think the real purpose of free will is to enable us to be able to relate to other people, each person being unique. How we do that can be up to us.I see free will as the simple choice between my own way and God's Way. To really be saved so as to be always with God, a person must finally and completely give the reins of choice to God. No one normally does this all at once, unless it is at the very end of physical life as with the 'good' thief on the cross. The choices are in our hands while we have time left. True Repentance would give the reins to God, but when one decision is made correctly there will be another decision to be made. Again a Life or death decision to make is back in our hands and surrender must be repeated. Can a person every fully repent and stand by it until the end of his course?
Man alone in too many cases would not make the right decision because he cares too much for his own physical life, but then we are ask and receive [Matt 7:7].
Yes, if people really love God the times of stumbling will decrease [John 3:30] as He grows/increases within us. God will help us to reach the end with Him so long as we don't quit. If we do finally quit, we really loved our carnal world of comforts more than we loved Him. Along the Way we may back slide as we see in the type of David in the OT, but David would never quit on God and neither should we. Like David, we take whatever chastisement is coming to us and move on toward Him. If like King Saul we make excuses for ourselves or put the blame on others, like him, we will be rejected by God.At first glance, this may look dull and unexciting; but God likes variety. Just look around. I think the real purpose of free will is to enable us to be able to relate to other people, each person being unique. How we do that can be up to us.
I didn't respond in the other thread, but I loved the story about your wife and what she wears. Often what we want (or think we want) really isn't that important. It can be so easy to adapt to others; and the joy of pleasing them far exceeds the pleasure of doing something we may think we want. Stumbling will surely decrease if we can do that. If we say we love God, we have to love others -- and that means realizing often what we think we want isn't that important, not really. If we do stumble, it can always be used as a learning experience. "Take whatever chastisement" may be coming and then don't do it again.Yes, if people really love God the times of stumbling will decrease [John 3:30] as He grows/increases within us. God will help us to reach the end with Him so long as we don't quit. If we do finally quit, we really loved our carnal world of comforts more than we loved Him. Along the Way we may back slide as we see in the type of David in the OT, but David would never quit on God and neither should we. Like David, we take whatever chastisement is coming to us and move on toward Him. If like King Saul we make excuses for ourselves or put the blame on others, like him, we will be rejected by God.
Give God the glory!I didn't respond in the other thread, but I loved the story about your wife and what she wears. Often what we want (or think we want) really isn't that important. It can be so easy to adapt to others; and the joy of pleasing them far exceeds the pleasure of doing something we may think we want. Stumbling will surely decrease if we can do that. If we say we love God, we have to love others -- and that means realizing often what we think we want isn't that important, not really. If we do stumble, it can always be used as a learning experience. "Take whatever chastisement" may be coming and then don't do it again.